A response was offered on facebook to my post, and I’ll respond to those comments to follow

That’s… not a very good defense, is it?

You reject me asking for proof because I don’t know how I exist?

There was quite a bit more to it than that, obviously. That is a valid argument, however.

You are right. I do not know for certain that my senses do not deceive me. I do not know if everything I have ever experienced is merely an illusion, or truly life. However, my senses are all I have to go on, and I will not reject them because of uncertainty. I often find that the most foolish of people are also the most certain, and will never make the mistake of claiming infallibility.

Some interesting comments here.

1) The options are presented as “illusion” or “truly life”, which seems to be a false dichotomy.

I’m not sure what relationship this has to my post, as I did not say anything about illusion at all, nor did I intend any relationship to be drawn from this.

2) There is discussion of sensory data deceiving – that was not part of my discussion at all.

The discussion was related to the justification we have, or do not have, for our knowledge, existence, predication, thinking, or what have you. Sensory data, of course, is interpreted, but I am talking about topics *below* and *foundational to* all discussions of sensory data interpretation. Thus, I’m not sure what this has to do with the subject.

3) There was no discussion of senses being rejected, and nothing concerning “uncertainty” as being the reason for this.

There is no discussion of uncertainty or rejection of the senses in view, so once again, I’m not sure why he is discussing it.

4) The claim is made that “certain” people are the most “foolish”.

By what standard of “foolish” is this asserted? The standard of the world’s wisdom, or of God’s wisdom? If it is from the viewpoint of the world, isn’t that the subject under dispute?

5) The author claims that he never claims infallibility.

I’m glad, as I do not do so either.

However, I have made no philosophical claims of existence. I have merely rejected your spiritual claim of existence, being no reasonably acceptable evidence has been brought forth.

By using the word “I”, one is, in fact, making a philosophical statement of existence. What I am questioning is the justification for doing so. By “merely” rejecting something, you are providing your own replacement for the thing rejected – which is what I am challenging. As the initial assertor, the burden of proof lies with him. My challenge is to his basis for even making the claim “Only a fool believes something without proof. To simplify that for you: only a fool relies on faith.”

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” — Carl Sagan

By what standards, respectively for:
a) Extraordinary
b) Require
c) Evidence

What epistemic obligation exists to obey this assertions? What duty do I have to accept the above as true? What standard of “extraordinary” is being used, and is it being assumed that I am somehow obliged to accept Sagan’s worldview, and thereby agree? By what standard of “require” am I obliged to accede to his demands? Is he asserting that there is a universal epistemic duty I am beholden to, exemplified by this statement? Which standard of “evidence” applies to what am I being told to provide, and by what standard is it considered such? Shouldn’t we deal with 1) Our disparate claims to epistemic justification 2) Our contradictory worldviews, in which evidence is likely to have different connotation, and 3) Whether or not the worldview asking for evidence has any claim over another person to begin with?

“What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence” — Christopher Hitchens

Once again – by whose standard? I don’t consider Hitchens’ statement to be accurate, let alone binding. Whose standard of evidence are we using? How do we know there is none?

And no, the Bible is not acceptable evidence, just as the Koran is not, nor the Vedas.

So, you insist, a priori, that I agree with you, in order to disagree with you? You do understand that I have directly asserted that the Scripture is my epistemological justification, do you not? Is this clear to you? I said, quite clearly, that the only possible precondition for knowledge, or anything else, for that matter, is the Triune God of Scripture. Yet, you have a priori rejected my claim, while ignoring the argument made on it’s behalf. Further, you have insisted that I abandon my own epistemological basis to even discuss something with you. On the contrary, I have addressed your epistemological basis, and offered an argument to show that self is an insufficient basis for your epistemology. I offered an argument, which demands an answer, not a dismissal. Yet, apparently, you can assert, without evidence – but I can’t dismiss it without evidence? It seems to me that you are the one arguing contrary to Hitchens’ maxim. Further, *by what standard* is the Bible unacceptable evidence? Says you? Well, by your standard (and this is an internal critique here) I can just as easily say “says me, the Bible is sufficient”, and that is an equally valid claim – by your own standard. Now, back to my worldview, I gave several reasons why the Scripture is sufficient. Please deal with those.

My response in the comment thread:

But you are? Your self is? Any particular person is sufficient personal awesomesauce to impose his subjective opinion of anything whatsoever on anyone whatsoever, and his personal opinion is such as is sufficient for being believed? You don’t have a claim to induction, either, as per Hume, so your sense experience is not reliable – which is why I included it. I “merely” reject all of your subjective non-claims, because they are made by a non-being, by your own non-standards. There is no such thing as evidence, there is no such thing as acceptable, as we are disparate beings, with no objective standard to conform our opinions to. There is no ordinary, and there is no extraordinary. There is no grounds by which to reject, or to affirm. You cannot claim infallibility, or fallibility, because everything is subjective.

There are no brute facts. Facts are interpreted a priori, and your interpretative ability, by your own (subjective) standard, is what is being called into question.

In fact, by your own standard – there is no such thing as a fool, because there is no such thing as truth.

His reply:

And we may very well be constructs in the Matrix. However, I generally do not find this to be a reliably found solution. Not having a “claim to induction” does not make my senses unreliable.

Perhaps I should clarify here – I said “sense experience” above – and what I was referring to was the concept that sense experience is contributory to knowledge. The problem of induction is that we have no justification for our expectation that the future will be like the past. Since this is so, we have no justification for assuming that what we experience via the senses is actually a means to acquire knowledge.

There are facts. Facts are what happened. If a blue fish is blue, it is blue. It *probably* reflects electromagnetic wavelengths with around a 450 nm wavelength, if you want to get technical.

Now, how people interpret these facts is where things can go wrong. We could just assume we ARE in fact in the Matrix, and go about our lives. We could just assume we are in the blue fishes mind in the last example, and we are imagining ourselves look at the blue fish.

We could also realize that this isn’t anything we have brought up at all. For some reason, he seems to want to go back to “the Matrix”, or some similarly absurd counter example, when in fact the objection is related to epistemology, not sense-reliability. We are not talking about the relationship of sense to illusion, or sense to deception. We are talking about the relationship of sense to knowledge. Since induction is unjustified in the unbelieving worldview, there is no justification for *using* it – and it is irrational to do that which is unjustified. Not only that, but there is no relationship that *can* be made between past and future!

These aren’t useful speculations, though. These have no evidence (Such as being able to see the blue fish, to weigh it, to make various measurements of it. These are useful abilities, which often make very good evidence for things).

But, no. Don’t twist what I say into something you want it to be. I’m sure you can take whatever you want and make it sound foolish, but doing that doesn’t actually make the original idea foolish.

The problem is, all of the things listed above *have no justification from your own worldview*. That is why I brought it up. You cannot assume a constant system of measurement. You cannot assume that things remain uniform. You cannot assume “use” is something that has tenacity for day to day. All of these things – and basically all of human thinking whatsoever – are utterly destroyed by the lack of a justified induction.

My response in the comments:

Or, the fact that your worldview can’t account for induction, deduction, or even the slightest portion of your everyday experience means that your worldview is what is at issue. Note: I’m not saying induction has no explanation – I’m saying *you* don’t have one. I’m not saying existence has no explanation – I’m saying *you* don’t have one. An argument from silence does not give the preconditions of intelligibility. What you have offered is not an explanation, but seems very much to be wishful thinking, while I, on the other hand, gave a thumbnail sketch of my epistemological basis for all of the above. If your worldview can’t account for that which you say gives you knowledge, what good is it?

I found his next set of comments very illustrative. They are posted to follow.

And now you’ve shown that you don’t actually understand my position. Great job.

No, I do not have an answer. To quote Dawkins, “We’re working on it.”

So, here we are given the quintessential unbelieving answer for this problem: “I don’t know, but we will!” I’m sorry, but isn’t this a bit more of a problem than that, as we’ve already illustrated? I’ve coined this as “the argument from optimism” previously, and it seems so very apropos. The unbelieving worldview has no answer for what knowledge is, how induction is justified, how immaterials such as concepts exist, the source and nature of logical laws, the relation between facts, how the one and the many problem is solved, the mind-body relationship, not to mention the dilemma posed by a subjectivist observer claiming to know objective truths. “We’re working on it”? Well, it’s been 3 or 4 centuries. Let us know how it’s working for you, skeptics.

You are taking an argument from ignorance.
…”Because we don’t know something, it had to be *this thing I want to believe*.”

You have no real evidence. You just seem to have taken a liking to one of the many, many religious texts there have been in history that claims to know.

I’d like to know what, in this long string of assertions, is factual. I’d also like to know what in this string would accord with even his definition of evidence. They are naked assertions, inconvenienced by any real relationship to my position.

I will gladly take my “I don’t know yet.” I will gladly try and figure out how it happened. I will come up with theories on what has happened, and I will test them. I will improve, them, change them when new evidence comes along. I will make them the best I can.

I will gladly let you, when you justify the things that allow you to make conclusions, or prove anything, about anything. Since that is what is being questioned, and we are being told “I don’t know” concerning, on what basis are we to do anything save ask, yet again, whether we are to be given any basis for what you claim to have no answer to justify, but irrationally claim to be utilizing?

You will take your book. You will claim it to be infallible. You will never change your ideas, even in the face of contradicting evidence. You will sink like a stone.

I’ve yet to see the standard by which (whatever it is) is claimed to be evidence, let alone why we should accept it.

*Note: The “I” and “You” are merely representative of our different arguments, not each other*

Noted.

To reiterate, I’m fine with “We’re working on it.” Your thumbnail sketch hold no bearing without evidence.

Your “evidence” is both meaningless and irrational, holding the worldview you do, until demonstrated otherwise. I’d be fine with an answer, instead of “pie in the sky, by and by”. As Greg Bahnsen used to say – “that is the problem with you atheists, you live too much by faith.” I think it applies here. Ironic.

My answer in the comment section:

Evidence by what standard of evidence? Saying “we don’t know, but we know you’re wrong” is… more than bit contradictory? If you have no basis for sense experience’s reliability or intelligibility, how can you then use that to critique… anything?

If you don’t have a basis for induction, why should I give the results of it any validity to critique my worldview? Further, if you don’t have a basis on which to assert that your interpretation of data results in incontrovertible “facts” – why should I accept your assertions? Even further, if you can’t explain the existence of concepts such as the laws of logic, by your own standard, why should I grant you the valid use of them, and not assert that you are borrowing from my worldview to use them, and as such, are using them wrongly?

His reply:

Look, I’ll believe you when you prove it. I didn’t say, “I don’t know, but I know you’re wrong.” I said, “I don’t know, figure it out and show me how.”

That is the sense of our entire conversation. “I don’t need to know that I’m rational to say you’re a fool”. On the contrary, I say you do.

Look at it this way. We’re driving in a truck. We’re both thinking, “I wonder how this truck works?” You provide a “thumbnail sketch” of how you think it works, and I decide that I want to look inside of it before I decide. I have no reason to believe you until I know you are right. I don’t currently know; this doesn’t make you right, and it doesn’t make my curiosity wrong.

See, being right is not a conditional on whether or not you check. If I give the right answer, I’m right whether or not you check. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong whether or not you check. However, once again, only within my worldview, not yours, because your worldview doesn’t provide the preconditions for that conversation to be intelligible, despite the fact that you’re having it. Therefore, having said precondition, whose worldview are you borrowing from, to object to it? As Van Til says, “Antitheism presupposes theism” – and this is the reason he said that.

And yes, I can still think you’re foolish for being pleased with your own answer, even though you don’t rightly know.

By what standard? That’s what inquiring minds needs to know.

My reply in the comments:

I’m making a specific argument here. The proof I am offering is that without the Triune God of Scripture you can’t prove anything. Proof via the impossibility of the contrary. Thus far, your argument has given precisely that. “We’re working on it” singularly fails to impress me as factual, especially coming from Dawkins, who is otherwise so impressed with factuality. His problem, and yours, is that most folks fail to study the epistemology of science, and have failed to do so for an inordinate amount of time. If scientists were still natural philosophers, as they used to be called, perhaps they would pay more attention to the foundations of their claims.

When the emperor has no clothes, I’m going to point it out. Induction – trusting the future to be like the past, has *no basis in your worldview*. Deduction – causal relationships of one to another – has no basis in your worldview. Therefore, sense experience is intrinsically unreliable, and unaccounted for. Until it is, you can’t begin to critique another worldview, let alone advance your own.

His reply:

You see, the only thing I’m assuming is that my senses are accurate. You are assuming that your book is accurate as well. I can very easily write a novel that claims proof of existence. It’s not very hard to do.

So, you are claiming the accuracy of your senses are your epistemological justification? How would that work, as an argument, using the senses, interpreted by the mind, as the justification for being able to think? “My senses are accurate, so I can think”? If you’re talking about empiricism, I think you’re confused as to the level I’m arguing on. This is prior to, and precedes any talk of *what* we consider knowledge.

As to the “write a book to prove existence” – I’m making a serious argument. Please be good enough to offer something substantive, rather than sophmoric. Thanks.

Can you prove it? What undeniable proof– outside of the bible– do you have? Wouldn’t, if it were true, it have so much more evidence? Just the fact that it is a religion’s holy book doesn’t make it valid. Islam has a holy book. Muslims claim that Allah is their reason for existence in the same way you claim your God is.

1) Prove it – by what standard? I don’t assume we have the same standard of proof, and you shouldn’t either. We espouse antithetical worldviews – and as such, will necessarily have different standards. How is your standard of proof – which I’ve already argued you don’t have, in any intelligible sense – applicable to me? This is what I mean when I tell people they are making unargued assertions. Is it clear, by now, that you are asking me to provide that which I’ve already demonstrated you can’t even process, by your own worldview? When I make the case that you *cannot prove anything at all apart from the Triune God of Scripture* – that doesn’t mean you say “so prove it by my standards!” That means *give me a standard at all, and then we’ll talk*. If even induction is unjustified, you have no schema by which proof *can* be considered, let alone considered valid.

2) Undeniable? By what standard? Mine or yours?

3) Outside the Bible? Didn’t I already say that outside of the Biblical worldview, you can’t prove anything? Weren’t you paying attention when I said that? I wasn’t saying it rhetorically – that’s why it came accompanied by an argument. Since the unbelieving worldview cannot justify knowledge, or proof, and the Christian worldview can, the only proofs offered are those *from* the Christian worldview. So I’m not very well going to argue as an unbeliever.

4) Sure, there’s evidence. In fact, every fact whatsoever is evidence for the God of Scripture. But by whose standard? This is an argument that attacks *whether* you can know anything – so asking me to give you stuff you can know *by that impossible standard* isn’t very helpful. I don’t think you’ve grasped the nature of the argument. I’m saying that only BY my standard CAN you know anything – and your claims to the contrary are self-deceptive assertions with no basis in reality.

5) Muslims do not argue as I do. How do I know? Because I debate Muslims, as well. They have no counterpart to this argument whatsoever.

Which one am I to believe? Ooh, I know!

The one that is predominant in the region I was born in!

Well, that may be true for you. I’m from Arizona, not from the Bible Belt. I didn’t grow up Reformed, I didn’t grow up with the same faith I’m in now. I didn’t grow up with this conception, although I did grow up in a Christian home, although not a Christian myself. I had an extended bout with unbelief when I was near your age, and I was saved out of it. The consistent Christian doctrinal standard I espouse was “predominant” in the 17th and 18th centuries – in England. That’s about it. What I believe is the sole provenance of my adherence to Scripture, and the consistent application of it. So, it’s hardly an unthinking and unreasoned position I am holding. It’s not something I just “adopted” one day – but something it took me years of study to come to. Forgive me, but it seems rather brash to assume so many things about someone you don’t know very well. There is a sense in which nominative Christianity is “prevalent” in the United States – the problem is, those who actually believe what the Bible says, as I do, are a significant minority of those claiming the name of Christian. You can count out Roman Catholics (I’m a Protestant in the historic sense – Calvinistic and Reformed) you can count out Unitarians, you can count out Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the greater part of the mainline denominations, as they do not hold to anything resembling historic Christianity. I’ve taught Church History, and it rather obvious that such is the case.

So, don’t assume. I’m not from around here, so you really don’t have that information accessible.

So, to sum up – my objection to your objection – is that without epistemic justification, you can’t *make* your objection. Since this is the case, by the impossibility of the contrary (ie: since it’s therefore impossible for the contrary to be true) your initial objection fails. To put it technically – for any x – any claim whatseover – y (The Christian Worldview, explicated within the Scripture) is the precondition for it’s intelligibility. Since ~y is demonstrated to be impossible, y is true, via the impossibility of the contrary, for any x.

Plus, on a side note, you’ve shown yourself to be far more reliant on faith, and with a less worthy object, than you could possibly assert I am. I at least have faith in an absolute. You have faith in a maybe someday – but we’re working on it. May I venture to say that atheism teaches us to be satisfied – not with an answer, but with a blind faith that there will be one someday?

My faith rests in the absolute, triune, revelatory, unchanging, eternal, sovereign, omnipotent, good, just, infinite, transcendent, and perfect God – in whom we all live, move, and have our being. Contrasted with “we’re working on it”? I know where I place my trust.

Ephesians 3:14-21 – For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; [and] that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him [be] the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

In Hussein Wario’s latest screed, he takes Dr. James White to task for his supposed destruction of his witness to Muslims. Interestingly, the paradigms of this supposed destruction are completely opposed to to Wario’s other comments on the matter. In those comments, his standards of behavior are different than that which he sets for others – as we have seen throughout from Caner Defenders.

As noted in an earlier post (and Mr. Wario has yet to respond to even a tithe of the material I have presented to him as yet) Mr. Wario started his involvement in this affair with a fair amount of the same thing he imputes to White.

“While a lot of Muslims were seeking information about Jesus Christ online and looking for Christians to talk to, some of us have been busy on our blogs and webcasts entertaining Muslims who have an agenda.”

“They have an ulterior motive, they tell you what you want to hear, or make the agenda – so because of that, maybe you need to make some apologies to these brothers for some of the things you have said which are not true.”

“Muslims started it with ex-Muslims, now they are taking it a step further in attacking Dr. White. He is already under a Muslim’s attack, being accused of denying “the doctrine of eternal security.” I bet there will be more of these attacks after the dust “settles” on the current discourse. His debates, podcasts, and speeches will be dissected. Muslims are on a mission and we are oblivious.”

“Muslims are on a mission, please let us not aid and abet to their tactics that attempt to discredit the Caner Brothers, other Christians of Muslim background, Dr. James White, et al. We should give our brothers the benefit of the doubt before going global with what Muslims bring to our attention. We need to become aware of the desperate tactics Muslims employ even attempting to discredit the Bible, Jesus Christ, and etcetera.”

“They had hoped for Dr. Caner to be fired and had counted on some form of evidence from Liberty they could use on their ongoing propaganda against ex-Muslims.”

“I could not fathom how some Christians could give Muslims a platform. Not especially when they knew Mohammad Khan has declared his war on other ex-Muslims, indiscriminately raising doubts about their past merely based on “absolutes” in Islam, their accents of Arabic (Islamic) terms and their non-Islamic (Arabic) names even when he had no prior knowledge of their background.”

“I knew from the outset that Mr. Khan was majoring in lies.”

“I have a very low opinion of these ex-Muslims bashers.”

“I seriously doubt that Muslims started this endeavor to find the truth but distract and confuse Christians.”

“Muslims have a penchant to dismiss ex-Muslims. They do not accept any explanation given.”

Now, Mr. Wario has also had an interesting correspondence with a certain Yahya Snow and Jonathan, aka grandverbalizer19. Mr. Snow is a Muslim apologist/blogger, as is Jonathan, and both have a long history of being “less than completely factual”, shall we say. I linked to their sites so that the reader may read for themselves. A cursory examination of their respective blogs clearly demonstrate my above assertion. Mr. Wario has gone on record as supporting the claims of Mr. Snow and Jonathan against both Dr. White and the folks from Acts 17 Apologetics – going so far as to apologize on the behalf of Christians.

Before I get started, I would like to thank Muslims who have helped us Christians to realize that we have a gargantuan problem within the Body of Christ. I apologize to Yahya and Jonathan on behalf of my Reformed Christian brethren who have insulted you. Please, forgive us.

Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t want him apologizing for me, thank you very much. What ever happened to “They have an ulterior motive, they tell you what you want to hear”? What happened to “let us not aid and abet to their tactics that attempt to discredit the Caner Brothers, other Christians of Muslim background, Dr. James White, et al”? Don’t “(w)e need to become aware of the desperate tactics Muslims employ”?

Interesting how we research the issue ourselves – do extensive research, in fact – but Hussein can take the word of Muslims on face value, when it aids his particular case here? Interesting how the many witnesses on the Acts 17 blog are ignored (I know one of them personally – Stephen, quoted in an article on their site) – but an “Arab Pastor” he’s never met is taken over the others. Jonathan was quoted to “refute” Dr. White over the salat in the bathroom issue, as well. Yet the expert Dr. White contacted is dismissed as *obviously* having misunderstood. The double standard is appalling.

Once again, I call on Hussein Wario to answer the dozens of issues I’ve raised as to his own consistency and factual errors. The more he posts, the more he seems to stick both feet firmly in his mouth. It’s embarrassing, frankly, and the seemingly intentional dishonesty, with no reply forthcoming makes me more than a little angry on behalf of the name of Christ, that someone who claims to serve him would be so glaringly inconsistent. He keeps bringing up single data points divorced from context, and claiming they are silver bullets, and demanding apologies – contrary to his original stance on that issue, incidentally.

It’s quite amazing that his elders are allowing him to behave in this fashion – and I will be looking for that information soon, if this behavior persists. It’s disgraceful. Hussein, brother – you are shaming the Bride of Christ as well as your Lord. Throwing off oft-refuted Arminian canards like this one are quite amazing, coming from someone “reformed.” As i told him before – if your church stinks as bad as you keep saying it does, find one that doesn’t. I’ll make sure I mention your low view of the church to your elders as well. Do you not see what damage you’re doing to YOUR witness? I’ve consistently warned you of this, but you just refuse to listen. This is the last time I’m going to do so. Repent, and consider your way. I’m going to your elders next. however little I want to.

All one needs to do to demonstrate the title of this post is true is to examine the Caner Scandal. Ergun Caner’s defenders have consistently refused to examine the evidence of Ergun Caner’s multiplicitous prevarications – and instead have attacked those criticizing Dr. Caner. See, evidentialism is all about presenting “brute facts”, “objectively” from a putatively “neutral” standpoint. There are many problems with this. First, no one is neutral. Second, there are no brute facts. Third, there is no objectivity from any position save that of a worldview based soundly in Christian theology.

Here’s where evidentialism goes off the rails. They assume that man can reason properly, absent God’s regenerative grace. Based on that, they assume that given “facts”, in this universal reasoning ability, you can come to the correct conclusion if the case is reasoned well. Third, they “cut down” the whole of Christian theology, and argue from “bare theism”.

Let’s take the first. Scripture most definitely denies this assertion. Romans 1 tells us that men “suppress the truth in unrighteousness”, they “become futile in their speculations” and thus God gives them over – to lusts, to passions, and to a depraved mind. Proverbs repeatedly tells us that the fear of the Lord is the *beginning* of wisdom. Tell me – if you don’t even have the beginning, how can you have any at all? I could go on, but this is going to be short, so I’ll stop there.

Second, no fact is examined apart from your own already-formed conceptions. Until and unless those conceptions, or presuppositions, are addressed, you will go nowhere. Everything a man examines is filtered through the matrix of their presuppositions. There are no “brute” facts, which merely need to be seen to reach the proper conclusion.

Third, the assumption that there is an “objective” viewpoint for unbelievers to look at facts from is absurd. Did not Christ say “I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life?” That means there is, definitionally, no other! Does not Paul say, in Colossians, that ALL treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ Jesus? This means that all other purported wisdom, purported knowledge, is foolish – it is only “falsely called wisdom”. (1 Ti 6:20)

So, back to our example. When presented with video, audio, legal documents, examples from his own writings – what is the response of Caner’s defenders? I’ve seen a few types of response.
1) Ignore it
2) Spin it
3) Attack the messenger

Now, does this look to you like all you have to do is present the evidence, and they will see the light? If someone doesn’t *want to believe the evidence* – they won’t – and only an act of God will change that desire. After all – isn’t that we’re always saying? Only those drawn by the Father will come. Only those given ears to hear, will hear.

Tim Rogers is claiming that Caner was “exonerated”. Do people who are exonerated get fired as President of a seminary? Peter Lumpkins is claiming that “Ergun Caner did not make up his life testimony.” Tim Guthrie claims that “He is NOT a liar.” Excuse me? On what possible grounds can any of these statements be made? Oh, that’s right – on presuppositional grounds. Faulty presuppositional grounds. If none of the evidence presented, save that which can be refuted (and has also been refuted by Caner’s *Christian* critics, save for one undiscerning soul), is considered valid *a priori*, or has been examined at all, it’s easy to say that. It’s just as easy to say a red light is green – if you’re colorblind.

So, as I said – this situation points out quite clearly what the issue is. It’s NOT evidence. it’s *presuppositions*.

To close with a couple quotes from Dr. Robert Price, a skeptic Dr. White recently debated:

Dr. Price: “if you had your video camera, you’d have picked it up – but nobody did… I don’t know what on earth could prove that Moses divided the Red Sea, save a trip in a time machine… it’s a question of theology, not a historical judgement” – from that recent debate.
Dr. White: (selected) “this issue this evening is not just the skepticism that says we don’t know… if we are not for God having spoken, we are where Dr. Price is this evening…. so, there could not be any evidence from antiquity that could convince you?”
Dr. Price: “no, I can’t see how, given the nature of documents from antiquity”
Dr. White: “Does it not follow that there cannot be anything short of multiply attested recordings of an event to prove it?”
Dr. Price: “”I’m afraid that’d be so.”

Our intrepid defenders, note – are even MORE skeptical than Dr. Price. Even video cannot prove whether something happened, to these folks. I rest my case.

This post by Rosemarie really hit the spot today.

I always learn from Rozie. She’s indeed a woman of wisdom.

This is video from last year’s Arabic Festival. It’s rather stunning.

I’m posting this because this year, David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi have been arrested at the Arabic Festival. I don’t have any more details at this time, but please pray for these brothers. David is scheduled to debate twice tomorrow at the same venue as Dr. White is debating Sunday and Monday. Please pray for them, and for the debates this weekend. More info can be found here.

This is a response to the much-hyped “silver bullet” post which Mr. Wario has, as of the end of this post, sent out via twitter to 51 people, thus far. I’m sure the number will grow daily, if past tendencies bear out. The problem with the post is that 1) It is chock-full of libel, while putatively rebuking libel/slander. 2) He has been corrected concerning the “facts” contained therein multiple times before. 3) While he does have two good points, they are a) buried beneath the mud he is slinging, and b) unrelated to any of the subjects he has been challenged on repeatedly. 4) Mr. Wario continues to offer fallacious arguments that have had thorough responses offered to them, and has not substantively addressed any of the challenges made to those arguments.

“Insha’Allah “name withheld” will continue to learn about Islam & become Muslim Insha’Allah,” wrote a Muslim in reaction to a link Mr. Mohammed Khan of “fake ex-Muslims dot com” posted on Dr. Ergun Caner’s Facebook fan page on Sunday, June 6, 2010. [Inset and emphasis mine.] You probably are curious to know who Muslims wish would become a Muslim. They are not involved in this saga in vain. He is none other than Dr. James White. The link was to a post on Alpha and Omega Ministries’ website. I have discussed how desperate Muslims are at spreading Islam in the United States. Apparently some Reformed Christians don’t get the point. One of them even said, “Regardless of what Ergun Caner has done, it does not change eternal truth in what God has done. Muslims laugh as do Christians.” I partly agree—we cannot change God’s will—but the lack of restraint is nauseating.

What is interesting here is that there is a complete lack of balanced address of the discussion. Notice that this entire entry says nothing concerning the demonstrable sins Ergun Caner has engaged in. It never makes any positive comment about commitment to seeking the truth displayed by those who have uncovered his falsehoods. Instead, we are told that an unnamed “lack of restraint” on the side of the Reformed folks, of course, is “nauseating”. Well, while that is an interesting personal opinion he has offered us, is there any explanation or proofs offered to back this claim up? The only discussion that follows is about Alpha and Omega. Therefore, we are left only to guess that this is whom he is referring to.

Some of these Reformed Christians have asked me on Facebook, twitter and comments on my blog, begging me to quit standing beside my fellow Christian of Muslim background, Dr. Ergun Caner. Some of them even argued I would lose credibility. I have defied their calls solely because there is not a vestige of truth in their claim. Their insults are proof that fidelity to the gospel is not what drives them, but advancing Dr. White’s cause at whatever cost, even to the truth.

Well, would you care to argue about more than piecemeal issues? When we argue sans context, and artificially limit the terms of the discussion, it’s possible to argue anything. However, when the context is allowed to be present, and the entire issue with all of it’s facets is discussed, the picture drawn is often much different. For instance: arguing “devout” in a limited context of what a Muslim considers to be devout, devoid of the context of audience, devotion as a lasting attribute, and disregarding “convert syndrome”. Any of those things will necessarily add depth to the discussion in question, and requires more argument to overcome. Stating things differently from the critic’s position, *not* addressing the critic’s position at all, and claiming victory is not sound argumentation.

Before I get started, I would like to thank Muslims who have helped us Christians to realize that we have a gargantuan problem within the Body of Christ. I apologize to Yahya and Jonathan on behalf of my Reformed Christian brethren who have insulted you. Please, forgive us.

I’d just like to remind Mr. Wario of his recent comments.

“While a lot of Muslims were seeking information about Jesus Christ online and looking for Christians to talk to, some of us have been busy on our blogs and webcasts entertaining Muslims who have an agenda.”

“They have an ulterior motive, they tell you what you want to hear, or make the agenda – so because of that, maybe you need to make some apologies to these brothers for some of the things you have said which are not true.”

“Muslims started it with ex-Muslims, now they are taking it a step further in attacking Dr. White. He is already under a Muslim’s attack, being accused of denying “the doctrine of eternal security.” I bet there will be more of these attacks after the dust “settles” on the current discourse. His debates, podcasts, and speeches will be dissected. Muslims are on a mission and we are oblivious.”

“Muslims are on a mission, please let us not aid and abet to their tactics that attempt to discredit the Caner Brothers, other Christians of Muslim background, Dr. James White, et al. We should give our brothers the benefit of the doubt before going global with what Muslims bring to our attention. We need to become aware of the desperate tactics Muslims employ even attempting to discredit the Bible, Jesus Christ, and etcetera.”

Now, keep in mind that this is not my position. This is Mr. Wario’s position. By his own standard, he is now guilty of precisely what he has been attempting to argue against. I’m perfectly fine with arguments from Muslims being given. If there are people insulting Muslims, or anyone else, they should stop, of course. What I’m pointing out is the glaring inconsistency shown by Mr. Wario. We’re more than capable of answering objections for ourselves. Mr. Wario cannot seem to answer the ones made against his position. This may be due to the fact that his position has moved 180 degrees recently, but I’ll let him defend that. This may also be due to the fact that Dr. White is not an ex-Muslim, and is thus fair game, despite what he said above. As his positions have been demonstrated to be inconsistent, it’s logical to assume that this one has also changed, due to his behavior in recent weeks toward Dr. White and any who disagree with Mr. Wario.

Dr. James White asked me to appear on his radio program, the Dividing Line, to answer some of the “accusations” I had made about him and his ministry. He insisted that I call into his radio program to discuss him publicly. Even a friend of his wrote to me. He had a problem that it only took me six weeks to find inconsistencies in his statements. I was going to write and post about his double speaking last week but decided against it. The call to the radio was supposed to discuss him and his ministry. Please listen and judge for yourself if the rules were followed.

Note the discrepancy here. First, you say that you were asked to answer some of the accusations you had made. Simple grammar denotes that this means you were to be the one answering, not asking more questions and slandering him further – as it has been demonstrated. Next, you say that the call was “supposed to discuss him and his ministry”. Which is it? Was it for you to answer for your allegations, as I provided documentation of in my previous post, or was it for *you* to discuss him and his ministry? I have listened for myself, provided a transcript, and commentary. Note also that Dr. White is a presuppositional apologist. The presupper demonstrates that the only proof that can be provided is one given from a Scriptural foundation. Instead of providing anything of the sort, you used your opportunity to slander Dr. White on his own radio show. As Dr. White has been known to say – and has said multiple times even since you began listening – “Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument”. Your inconsistency showed up quite clearly, and he nailed you on it in the call.

He has gone on record to claim that the Christianity Today article on Dr. Ergun Caner did not go “far enough” because Liberty University is its main advertiser. I called him on his speculation. For example, when Mr. John Kennedy of CT called on April 22 to interview him about the saga, he praised him on the Dividing Line as an experienced reporter who had written “over 1000 articles.”

I’m once again fascinated that you are using the exact same term you did in the call, when Dr. White corrected you. Giving factual background concerning the reporter is hardly “praise”, yet again. The comment in question merely said that he is an experienced reporter, who has written over 1000 articles for CT. Nothing else was said. For further context, this is a transcription of the portion of the 5/04 DL you are objecting to. (6:15ff 5/04) “I do not know Mr. Kennedy, we only spoke briefly on the phone, he just asked a few questions, there was no basis for me to have any knowledge of who he is, or what he’s about, or anything like that. It is very hard for me to avoid the consideration that Liberty University is a very large source of advertising budget for certain Christian media outlets, because the whole form of the article was clearly not done in an unbiased fashion. The idea that this is just some “bloggers” trying to create problems. I mean, documentation, documentation is not even discussed, linked to, anything like that, and the fact that statements were made, especially by Elmer Towns that are just completely disconnected from reality.”

Did Dr. White go “on record” to claim that Liberty was Christianity Today’s “main advertiser”? Hardly. What were you saying about speculation, Hussein? If you’re going to make accusations, make accurate ones, please.

And when the article did not meet his expectation, he was quick to speculate on the advertisement and he ran away with it. He claims CT is a for-profit organization and it risked losing ad money had the reporter covered everything he had said in the interview. He defended his speculation on the radio. He insisted that he was not defaming Liberty University, John Kennedy or Christianity Today. I was bothered by his claim and decided to contact Christianity Today.

When Dr. White’s treatment of the article did not meet Hussein’s expectations, he speculated on his comments, and ran away with them. He claims that Dr. White said that CT is a for-profit organization, and risked losing ad money had the reporter covered everything in the interview. Listen to that show again, Hussein. You will find that this is not what he said. I also insist he was not defaming any of the above. Listen to the show or read the transcript. It’s quite obvious that Dr. White did not say what you are claiming he said. I’m beginning to wonder if you, like Dr. Caner, believe that no one can access this readily available information.

What I discovered is shocking. Liberty University is not even in the top “100 CT advertisers.” Contrary to Dr. White, it is a non-profit and you can find its IRS information here and its Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability records here. I am in shock that the Diving Line has officially become the Dissing Line not only of Christians but also of reputable Christian organizations.

Frankly, it doesn’t shock me. Contrary to Mr. Wario’s claims, Dr. White did not say it was “for profit”. I’m sadly not amazed that Mr. Wario is continuing on in a line of discussion that is distinctly unprofitable, untrue, and frankly, libelous.

Is Dr. White going to apologize for ruining these reputations? When I asked him where his speculation fit in Ephesians 4:29, he retorted in a tweet, “Before I block you, I must say thank you as well: your unwillingness to answer direct and honest questions was very telling.”

Is Mr. Wario going to apologize for the weeks of his libel of Dr. White? For speculating about Dr. White’s motives?

Dr. White’s Christian fans believe everything he says about Islam. They would rather take his word on Islam than a Muslims’. For those who are unaware, he made what I call a “parody” video of Dr. Caner’s pronunciation of Arabic words. I urged Dr. White to refrain from discussing the Caner Brothers. He never listened. Now Muslims have a better reason, which would be a clue to stop but I do not know if he would listen. I wonder if he is accountable to anyone.

No, we actually do independent study of our own, and ask questions as well. I find it interesting that you continually denigrate whole swatches others to “demonstrate” your position. As for me, who has spent a significant amount of time offering substantive response, which has not been addressed in any meaningful fashion, I find your statement distasteful, at best. It is akin to the commentary given by Romanist apologists and others who dismissively title friends of the ministry as “minions”. If you’d like a list, I keep track.

There is a problem with the video. Some Muslims kindly asked Dr. White to edit the video or put a disclaimer that there is a verse missing. The error is due to a mishandling of Suratul Al-Fatihah, the “first” chapter of the Qur’an. An entire verse was left out when the tutor recited. (The tutor is an Arab Christian and was never a Muslim.) Dr. White joined in the recitation and did not catch the error. The video is now on YouTube. Muslims want it edited because it misrepresents the Qur’an.

First, this has been addressed.

Apparently, that is too much to ask of Dr. White. He wrote a blog entry about the error, dismissing Muslims’ request as “irrational.” Is this sort of arrogance befitting of a minister of the Gospel?

Apparently, it’s too much to ask Hussein to mention that the blog post contained much more than a single word. Was that all he said, Hussein?

I asked him about it and he tweeted, “Why do you care so much about what irrational people think? I do not understand it.” He and his tutor made a mistake and he does not acknowledge it. Do Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church and Alpha and Omega Ministries have a consistory and board of directors respectively? If they do, something needs to be done about his behavior.

Feel free to contact Pastor Fry or A&O’s board of directors. I will mention to you that if this behavior continues, I will be contacting your consistory, on the charge of libelous troubling of the brethren. I’m not kidding, and I don’t make empty promises, sir. This is getting ridiculous to an absurd degree. You seem to consider everything in a personal fashion, and your statements in reply to consideration of your argumentation is *personal attacks*. This, sir, is quite ridiculous. Repent.

He maintains that the Caner Brothers are fake ex-devout Muslims. Court documents destroy his argument. He has not apologized and it does not look like he will any time soon. He argues that a Christian leader should be “above reproach.” Now he balks at what he has been calling Dr. Ergun Caner to do. Even a legal document, one that was issued more than three decades ago by a county government in Ohio cannot convince him. Are we going to believe this document, which a private investigator in a concerted effort with Dr. White unearthed, or Dr. White, who merely pontificates? You be the judge.

I’ll address this allegation next, but it’s rather simply handled. First, the post in question has a significant problem in context. “…the trial court erred in failing to make specific conclusions of law as to the constitutionality of an order requiring defendant-appellant’s children to continue their instruction and practice of the Islamic faith.” I haven’t answered this until now, because it’s blindingly obvious, on a cursory reading, and to anyone who reads it straight through. Who is the defendant in the *appeal* to follow, where he takes that last quote from? “‘The trial court’s denial of the plaintiff’s motion to require the children to be raised in the Islamic faith by their mother.’ [Emphasis mine.] This proves that Dr. Caner’s mother was a Muslim even when she was going through the divorce proceedings, because Mr. Caner asked the court if she could raise the children as Muslims.” Whose order was *denied*? Acar Caner’s. Who *appealed that ruling*? Monica Caner. Thus, Hussein’s argument is entirely backwards. Acar Caner’s request stood – Monica appealed it. Appealed raising her children as Muslims.

Muslims’ attack on Dr. Caner has fizzled but Reformed Christians are striving to keep it in the spotlight. I am fully convinced that nothing would satisfy them to drop some issues.

Nothing but truth, no. But it doesn’t seem as if Mr. Wario is concerned with truth. Oddly, this is directly contrary to what Dr. White tells every Muslim critic. Seek truth. Mr. Wario is not concerned with truth, by everything we have demonstrated thus far. He is dedicated to personal attack rather than addressing the argumentation provided, and he simply will not admit to wrongdoing thus far.

Here is a prime example. There are Muslims who scrutinize everything Dr. White says about Islam. They are keen, especially when he spews his knowledge of Islam to debunk Dr. Caner.

Note the usage of terms. “Spew” Not poisoning the well there at all, is he?

Not all his outings have been successful. He made mistakes—with no corrections or apologies—on Islamic teachings, most noticeably prayer in the bathroom.

He has responded to your critiques.

A Sunni Muslim who adheres to Malik Madhaba (school of thought) had urged him to stop his charade in March when he first started talking about the issue on the DL. This Muslim man in fact wrote to Dr. White six weeks before I called into DL. He asked him to stop discussing the prayer in the bathroom issue, because it was a non-issue, citing different Islamic fatwa (edicts), which according to Hanafi School (which Dr. Caner’s father adhered to) supported prayer in the bathroom. This Muslim even brought up a scenario with Dr. White about an incarcerated Muslim in a cell with no walls separating the bathroom from his living area. Dr. White never listened and continued discussing the issue. He got airtime out of it even after I called into his program six weeks later. He even brought it up last Thursday on DL.

This is an exercise in missing the point. I invite any reader to examine whether any of these extreme cases have anything to do with Ergun Caner’s case, which, as a differentiation, has been discussed, at great length.

I know Reformed Christians who have written to Dr. White about their concerns in regards to his involvement in this saga, and how he has not acted according to scriptures. Whenever they tried to have him focus, at least examine his own involvement; he always ended up turning the conversation toward the Caner Brothers.

Well, using the anonymous correspondent card is well-played. I would venture a guess that they brought up the same objections that have been personally addressed multiple times since this saga began. I’d invite these correspondents to post their letters – I bet I can finagle getting the response they received posted, as well. As far as I know (and I asked on this point), there has been no such private outcry from “Reformed Christians”. I’m willing to be corrected, of course – but I do not speak from no knowledge on this point.

His fans, supporters and colleagues have been asking me about “Hadith 29:82” that he challenged me to identify on DL. Once again, I repeat. I addressed the Hadith issue—which even Muslims do not make an issue—in a previous post on May 15, 2010. I said “there is no “official” way to cite Hadith. The most authentic Hadith collection is Sahih Bukhari. Many times when it is quoted, it comes without the name because it is the most authentic and widely referenced. I have checked some of the aHadith in question and they come from Sahih Bukhari.

Once again, you not only failed to listen to the call you made, Dr. White’s comments afterwards (the one he asked you in the phone call was NOT Bukhari, although there is a 2982 in Bukhari), and failed to read my post – where I answered your point quite thoroughly. If you had done more listening, and less speaking (Anyway, anyway…) you might have learned something. Honestly, I fail to see how on earth you could tell which Hadith 2982 Dr. White was referring to. In fact, you just gave the wrong one, assuming Bukhari.

If there were any errors on the Caner Brothers’ part, it was very minor. I never said that there was no problem in Unveiling Islam pertaining to how aHadith were cited. I avoided answering the questions “on-air” because Muslims are some of Dr. White’s biggest fans. His lampooning of any Christian who disagrees with him on any matter draws them. Since I did not have the Hadith books at hand, I did not answer it lest Muslims use the incorrect answer against me.

Note the prejudicial language. “Lampooning”. You didn’t mind answering the questions you had prepared answers for. The ones you didn’t – you didn’t answer. However, if you are going to make a claim, at least try to back it up. There was no way you could have known which Hadith he wanted cited. You know that, and everyone else does. Only you don’t know that, apparently.

Dr. White is frantically trying to keep the Hadith discrepancies in the spotlight. I should recommend that Dr. White venture out of his self-schooling environment. Only then will he open his eyes to Islamic views that differ from his or meet people who would call him to account. There is more a student gains outside of his or her self-study. A complete library can only take you so far.

I would suggest that you venture outside the Islamic apologetics environment for a while. You will acquire needed breadth, depth, and perspective. You have now backed yourself into the opposite corner from which you started, doing exactly what you claimed your opponent was doing. Is this consistency, or anywhere near what our calling is to be? I find it amazing that you think Dr. White’s only encounters with Muslim thought or argument is in books. Did you forget his debates? The discussions prior and following? The youtube engagements he has been involved in for years now? Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have made it readily apparent to all that you have not taken the time to get the background of the man you are critiquing. You are apparently unaware of the most basic things concerning his ministry, and as a result, your criticisms falter quite often on that basis alone. Sir, as I warned you as you started this; your credibility will suffer. If you haven’t felt it yet, you will. The resultant catastrophe will be solely yours, as well. Several of us have tried to turn you back, but you refused to listen.

A few Reformed radio programs have given some airtime to Dr. White. He continues the same stories. I am convinced beyond the shadow of any doubt that Dr. James White is not participating in this saga to get to the truth but to drag this issue on for personal gain.

Fascinating that speculation is okay in your case, but not in others. I’m convinced that you got in over your head, and now you’re resolved to go down swinging. You don’t have to.

So far, people who have publicly disagreed with him have been labeled. His fans have targeted them as well. He and his fans blame my “irrationality” on my cultural background. Rich Price, the President of Alpha and Omega Ministries, tweeted about me, “@HusseinWario I am seriously beginning to wonder if you are nothing short of a crackpot.”

No, we are quite familiar with Muslim argumentation, and yours is very similar. Keep in mind – we are a listening audience who has listened to hundreds of hours of Islamic lecturers and debaters now. We’re quite familiar with the patterns of Islamic thought. If you don’t recognize it, I’ll tell you this – we have a man in channel whose parents are from Ghana, and now lives in the United Kingdom. Just today he was affirming that this pattern exists in his extended family. It’s not personal. It’s an observation. once again – learn to separate the position from the person, or you will be continually offended.

As for Rich’s tweet – I agree, it was uncalled for. I even discussed it with him, and he agreed it was borne of frustration. As I’ve said – I’ve been consistent.

I was familiar with the Reformed faith even prior to coming to the United States in 1996. I never heard of Dr. White or his ministry until April 2010. Now that tells you where he ranks as a Reformed theologian.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware Reformed theology or apologetics was a popularity contest, or that there were “ranks”. If you treat it that way, I’m afraid to say that you will be doing the work of man your entire “ministry” – not of God. Take that to the bank.

For you Baptist folks, I know we have some theological disagreements but do not look at Reformed Christians through what Dr. White or his friends espouse.

I’m once again struck by the obvious holes in your theological background. Once before I’ve mentioned to you that “Baptist” also applies to Reformed Baptists. Like me, like Dr. White, like Tom Chantry. In fact, historically, confessional Baptists have been the theological core of Baptist life. I refer you to Tom Nettles’ excellent book on the subject – “By His Grace and For His Glory”. Differentiating “Baptists”, as if they are either monolithic, or not including Reformed Baptists, is a non sequitur.

Even Reformed people have written to him to ask to stop his campaign.

Not according to my information, as stated above. A simple jaunt around the blogosphere or Reformed sites is quite sufficient to note that practically everyone in the Reformed world who is paying attention to the Caner fiasco does not agree with you.

It seems like only his fans (who include Muslims) agree with him that it is biblical to continue this public debate about a brother in Christ. The time has come to ignore Dr. James White as long he continues to promote himself and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It seems like only Caner’s fans (and you) agree that it’s acceptable to launch personal attacks consistently and systematically against anyone who says something negative about the veracity of Dr. Caner’s statements. The time has come to repent, and leave that raging fire of a tongue you’ve been utilizing behind when you do.

I have said in the past that he has some underlying problems, which his supporters and fans are oblivious to. I have consulted a few brothers about his situation. Some of what has been said is not fit to share.

Then why share that? Once again, to you, it’s primarily about the man, not his arguments. I challenge any reader to go visit Mr. Wario’s blog to verify my statement. Read over my posts which document his continuing refusal to be corrected. Who is being unteachable, and who is responding factually, and cogently to what is presented to them?

I have been asked to leave him alone because he does not even get along with his colleagues. The man is never wrong. He, as a smart and prolific Christian theologian should concede some grounds that he is not well versed in, right?

I would posit, sir, that apologetics in general is not something you are versed in. I have significantly more material produced on the subject than you do, in fact. I don’t dispute you know more about me in one specific topic. However, you have shown by your behavior that you are lacking the key element of an apologetics ministry. The ability to give an answer with gentleness AND reverence. This is something lost on many polemicists in today’s high-speed, fast-paced, instant-answer society. I’m able to answer quickly at need – but only because I’ve studied to show myself approved – a workman that need not be ashamed. I’m sure I will make mistakes, and shame myself as well as my Lord at times. However, the behavior that you have displayed for us all, Mr. Wario, is distinctly not that of a Christian apologist. Once again, repent. I have no animus against you, but I will not correct forever. As I said, if this behavior continues, I will contact those to whom you are accountable. I have nothing to fear in that regard, and will gladly give you the contact information of my elders. However, know this – it’s been both plain and well-documented that you are behaving in a manner unfitting to a Christian. Repent, sir.

Sadly, even his narrow knowledge of Islam through self-study cannot be challenged. I hope he reconsiders his way. He asked for this post and his wish has been granted.

How on earth does Mr. Wario know what the breadth of Dr. White’s study in Islam is, having only listened to the Dividing Line for 2 months? It’s readily apparent that he hasn’t read the long list of articles on the website under “Islam”, or viewed the many, many videos related to Islam that he has produced. On what basis – other than speculation – does he say this?

I really wish I didn’t have to write these sorts of posts. I really do. However, I made it my point early on to take up Dr. White’s request that someone attempt to explain what it is that we are about. I have made the best effort, God willing, that I can manage, and I pray that God be glorified by it.

~Joshua (The guy who hides his name, like most Reformed guys) Whipps

My son Landon just related to me his joy in reading the first chapter of John. How he saw all sorts of wonderful things in the Word; that is made him think about the things in the past – the prophets, Jesus, that it made him think about what was coming in the future, that it made him want to pray (and that he did), that it makes him want to read the Word every day.

Folks, if you want a clue whether someone is saved – THOSE are the sort of things you look for. NOT whether they’ve “made a decision”, or whether they “want to be baptised”. The will is enslaved to sin. No emotional appeal, no matter how sincerely made or responded to, will overcome that spiritual slavery. God’s power breaks those chains, and they come to love Him and His Word. Of His choice, His power, His drawing, His regeneration, and His faith – wholly His work. A decision, dear friends, unaccompanied by His means of grace, is a work – of the fallen human will. We’re going to nurture this precious tendency, and watch over his growth carefully – as faithful parents – but it makes me so inexpressibly sad that this is not what we’re looking for in our families as evidence of the power of God. God’s work is ever so much more powerful and glorious than our own.

It is the amazing work of God’s gloriously sovereign grace to give new life to a dead sinner – and to proffer His gifts of faith, hope, and love, as well as every other good and gracious gift. I pray that Landon will continue in these things. I also pray that we give God alone the glory for His works.

This is a response to this comment. I don’t like cluttering my comments with massive post-length tomes, so here is my response – I quoted his comment in the post.

Thank you for selectively quoting me.
My pleasure. if I had exhaustively quoted your twitter account, it would have flooded the buffer out with promotional tweets. This isn’t a “weigh the good against the bad” contest. That’s Islam, not Christianity. The scales, right? Christianity teaches that a teacher must be “above reproach”, Hussein (1 Tim 3:2). I pointed out what I saw that was wrong, and what was hindering you in that regard. If you don’t like it, then I suggest you stop engaging in that behavior. In any case, please tell me how your discussion was “above reproach”?

By the way, I rebuked Diana for her criticism of Dr. James White.

Well, I don’t think that makes things any better, especially since you left the comments in place. But as we’ll see, you didn’t say a word about the venom in her comments concerning Dr. White’s family and character.

That’s a copout of colossal magnitude. In fact, Hussein, it’s reprehensible.

For some reason you selectively picked the tweets and left out the most important one.

As for selectively picking – of course I do. I’m not going to post hundreds of tweets. The ones pertinent, I posted. I actually didn’t see that one – but let’s see how much good that three-word tweet did. Shall we? (By the by – that’s it? That’s all you could say for the mountains of abuse she’s dished out thus far?)

As for “she repented” – let’s take a little look.

drpenn: Integrity: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. @droakley1689 has none. 11:31 AM May 17th via web
HusseinWario: @drpenn Tone it down. 11:36 AM May 17th via web in reply to drpenn
drpenn: @HusseinWario NO. You know – James White blogs, blogs, blogs – throwing his fits – and he can get away with it??!!! bull. 11:37 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
drpenn: @HusseinWario If he can cry foul – and @emircaner and @erguncaner remain silent!? I’m sick of James White & his arrogance. 11:38 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
@HusseinWario james white ‘demands’, ‘demands’ – give me a break. Who does he think he is for crying out loud?! 11:39 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
(Note: 3 tweets in response to that. A much different picture than what you represented above, is it not?)
ugh. what.ever. 11:39 AM May 17th via web
(Probably also in response, but it isn’t tagged as a reply)
HusseinWario: @drpenn I just want Dr. James White to focus on the Dividing Line, not criticizing any Christians, just teach from the Word. That is all. 11:42 AM May 17th via web in reply to drpenn
drpenn: @HusseinWario wouldn’t we all like that – look @ his blog – he double-talks. he wants it to end – but keeps perpetuating it. #fail 11:46 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
HusseinWario: @drpenn There is a comment you need to respond to at http://www.cracksinthecrescent.com 5:31 PM May 17th via web in reply to drpenn
drpenn: @HusseinWario no really I don’t. . I’m tired of their same old arguments. 5:42 PM May 17th via Echofon in reply to HusseinWario

Where’s the repentance? I did a search for “repent” on her full history from the 17th. These are the returns.

drpenn: @DSpratlin It’s in words like *demand* an apology. and *must* repent – his words reek of piety and self righteous smugness. 3:43 PM May 17th via web in reply to DSpratlin

drpenn: @DSpratlin ROTFLOL!! Are you SERIOUS?!! LOL!!! That is soooo pathetic. It’s Jimmie’s same old song…”REPENT!!”…..LOL. dude – really. 3:16 PM May 20th via web in reply to DSpratlin

RT DSpratlin @drpenn Oh no! Not repentance! We don’t need no stinkin’ repentance! God forbid people repent! That’s so unbiblical! 4:09 PM May 20th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to drpenn Retweeted by drpenn

RT DSpratlin @drpenn The unrepentant won’t be laughing. Neither will Caner when he gets his pink slip. Oh well. LBTS needs a real man as president. 4:18 PM May 20th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to drpenn Retweeted by drpenn

What about her site, you say?

Oops.

How about in the next few days? (and I note that your comment was about “integrity”, not the comments about Dr. White’s family.)

In this post, dated May 20th, she says this:

“I think Peter, Tim, and I have spoken the truth about James White. I also think Hussein Wario has spoken the truth about James White.”

Also:

“That being said – I still *absolutely* stand behind my theory about *why* James White attacks Dr. Ergun Caner with such ferocity. James White’s accusations ring loudly of truth – and I do not believe they should be ignored. James White’s severe co-dependent behavior only adds fuel to the fire of the truth . It’s blatant and extremely obvious to me that James White has baggage.”

Does that look like repentance to you, Mr. Wario? It looks like repetition of the same sin to me. Oh, then there’s this:

drpenn: @DSpratlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iId9uMleec&feature=related 4:30 PM May 20th via web in reply to DSpratlin

Go ahead. Click.

drpenn: @DSpratlin you are just as big a liar as @droakley1689 I stand by my link – “chief”. about 24 hours ago via web in reply to DSpratlin (about 6:30pm CST)

drpenn: Well – I guess the followers of a tantrum thrower *would* be cry babies. That makes sense. about 24 hours ago via web

drpenn: Sorry about all that folks. I got sucked in. http://wp.me/sIKnh-fail about 23 hours ago via web

drpenn: @cwray319 – those are his tweets to me yesterday. – so – I lost my “cool” – and sent the GI Jane link. about 2 hours ago via web

She did apologize in her post, which I grant – but is that where we go – at all – in Christian conversation?

Is that the “repentance” you meant? An apology is not repentance. It also wasn’t for posting the filth about Dr. White’s family.

Speaking of which…

And your second comment was devoid of any civility.

I’m sorry you feel that differentiating between arguments and the people themselves is devoid of civility. As I was taught, that was called “refraining from engaging in ad hominem.” I would respectfully ask you to consider the “civility” of her comments thus far – which is my principal problem with you thus far – allowing such behavior on your blog.

I’ll let whoever Googles your comments decide for themselves. By the way, there is no way I am going to allow a link that does not contribute to the discussion.

Yes, ad hominem SO greatly contributes, Hussein. Give me a break.

I’m telling you, what said must be true. Just look at James’ behavior!! His own behavior points to the truth of it. Until James White finds healing for all of that hurt – he will continue to hurt others. Fact.

Diana (drpenn on twitter)

Keep it up and people will really take you serious

If that is all the response you are able to muster, may I respectfully suggest, yet again, that you repent. I’m serious now, and I’ve been serious all along. You’re making an utter spectacle out of yourself by your behavior, and associating yourself with behavior like Diana’s is appallingly inconsistent, as well as just flat-out wrong.

Perhaps you’re not used to being challenged, sir, but you should be. Accountability is a serious, serious matter – and I hope you are subjecting yourself to someone for that purpose. I’m making an issue of this because your approach, frankly, is imbalanced to a large degree. If you’re going to make these sorts of claims around any other Christian, prepare to defend them. Further, if you are not yourself “above reproach”, your ministry will suffer, and the Gospel will be mocked. Which is what I have pointed out to you from the first. Please, stop this.

If you’d prefer to discuss privately from here on in, all of my contact info is up top. I’ll be DMing you a link to this post.

May God grant you wisdom,
~Joshua

For all of the Ergun Caner supporters out there:

When you engage in apologetics, do you go to the evidence for the resurrection? That’s a fairly safe bet for most of you.

If you won’t accept evidence that demonstrates Dr. Caner’s falsehoods – how on earth do you expect unbelievers to accept your evidence for the resurrection?

Interesting example of why Theology matters – in apologetics as well as in any other sphere.

For more information: Choosinghats.com

HT: Dale

Hussein Wario recently added a second post to his appeal for the cessation of what he calls “attacks” on the Caners, as well as “aiding and abetting” Muslim tactics. He adds this recommendation: “We should give our brothers the benefit of the doubt before going global with what Muslims bring to our attention.”

I engaged him in the comment section shortly – those comments, and his replies are here.

However, my third comment, he refused to publish. Additionally, he has removed the links in my previous two comments, as well as the link that should show up when you mouseover my name. I’m sorry folks, but my “handle” is fairly unique. Not to mention that this post is about to jump up in the google search results when his name is googled, unfortunately. Fortunately, I have a habit of saving the comments that people refuse to publish – and since I have my own blog, it can be reproduced here for all to see.

Why are you masking your identity?

I’m not. Click the link to my site. It’s very easily available. Even if I was – what does it matter? I’m very easily contactable.

By the way, the way Dr. White deals with people who disagree with him, how arrogant he gets, that is what turns off Muslims. Muslim ministry is not about debating them, calling them “irrational” and their arguments “emotive” in order to score points.

How about saying that their arguments are emotive, irrational, or inconsistent? That is what I said. Please read more carefully next time.

I have read through your posts and it seems like you have no idea what I have been writing about.

While that is a bold assertion, it would be nice if you’d give an example for your readers, instead of merely asserting.

You could be Dr. White masquerading as some guy.

Or, you could go to the website that links from my name. It’s very simple, sir.

Mark my words. Unless Dr. White quits discussing the Caner Brothers, debasing them while exalting himself, I will continue with this endeavor.

Once again – you are presenting us with an emotive argument, devoid of factual, logical information. Please provide this.

Wait for Monday and you will see for yourself how he would need to revise his “open letter” to Liberty University and jettison some of his talking points.

I’m sure you’ll have it all over twitter yet again

If you really care about the truth and Muslim ministry, you need to tell him to quit attacking these Christians of Muslim background.

Why do I need to? Again, please provide an argument for why I should so so.

Dr. White is the only apologist I know who openly criticizes people he disagrees with by name.

Can you explain why it is better to do so without naming people? Above, you were criticizing me for using a pseudonym. Is this consistent? Further, yet another assertion sans argumentation.

I am convinced that he cares less about the Caner Brothers’ repentance but score some popularity from this saga. His story keeps on changing.

Can you provide an argument to demonstrate either claim?

You also need to come out openly and reveal you identity. Why do my fellow Calvinists who are Dr. White’s sympathizers and followers commonly use pseudo names? Where is your integrity?

Sir, go to my site. Seriously. It’s all right there. Furthermore, I find it oddly inconsistent that you are criticizing others for integrity issues – in public – when your prior argument is that you must follow a “biblical pattern” in the matter of public claims. I don’t have anything in my inbox from you. Inconsistency, as Dr. White often says, is the sign of a failed argument. As Dr. White told you when you called in, a public statement can be publicly responded to – the pattern laid out that you referred to is for use in the local church.

As for you trying to tell me to quit, saying that you are concerned about my credibility because I stand with my fellow ex-Muslims who have sinned and who Dr. White and his Reformed-minded Christians have concocted ways to drive them off the face of the earth is laughable.

Can you give an argument for why this is so? This is yet another assertion, without even an attempt to demonstrate it.

You dismiss them as scholars of Islam with your shallow arguments and I stand by them because you have no clue what you have been talking about.

Can you demonstrate this?

You also dismiss them as devout ex-Muslims. Who are you to draw these conclusions when the court documents are inconclusive?

Can you demonstrate this?

You, Dr. White and the rest of his followers just pontificate, thus giving the Reformed faith a bad reputation.

Can you demonstrate this?

Dr. White cried foul saying that Liberty University had not been investigating Dr. Caner. And when Liberty decided to, he changed his tune.

Can you give any sort of factual reference for this?

All Christian leaders I have talked with who also work directly with Muslims agree with me that Dr. White has some major issues.

Argumentum ad populum. Fallacious argumentation, sir. Also given without any sort of citation. You’ve heard Dr. White in debate with people who assert “all scholars say”, or the like. What would the answer be to that assertion, Hussein?

Some of them know him personally and have intimated to me their frustration with him.

Someone’s emotional state concerning a person is hardly an argument of any sort.

If there will be any fallout, it will affect Dr. White and his ministry. So, tell him to go back to the basics and quit ruining the Dividing Line’s reputation. We might as well call it the Dissing Line because that label fits so well these days.

Ad hominem, naked assertion.

Sir, I wish you the best, but with the mass of assumptions, emotive arguments, assertions, and fallacies you’ve presented, is there any wonder that we’re not overly convinced? Please give something substantive in response. As it stands, I’m afraid that you are simply just not going to make any impression unless the standards of your discourse improve.

Sincerely,
Joshua. (It’s all on my site, Hussein. Not everyone has to be like you and use their real name as their url, okay?)

Now, while that may have hurt his feelings, did I address him or his arguments? Yet, my comment was not posted as of 8:02 pm. I posted it yesterday afternoon.

A few comments that also demonstrate inconsistency:

Dr. White is all about himself.

That was when I realized that Dr. White has an underlying problem, perhaps beyond these accusations of Dr. Caner being a liar.

I am a Reformed Christian and I am utterly ashamed of Dr. White. In my opinion, he is a disgrace to the Reformed faith—sola scriptura—because of his meddling in this matter and his disregard of the scripture. He is tacitly helping Muslims with their war against Muslim converts to Christianity.

@kai5263499 Oh my! I am glad to know I am not the only one. He is nuts. One of his accomplices just insulted me. Is it an Arizona thing? WOW

Notice – all of these are ad hominem, not ad argumentum. Against the man, not the argument. Unreal.

2 more comments have gone up since then. One from a particularly venomous character named Diane – drpenn on twitter.

A sampling of her choice invective:

I see one man, and his group of white-heads jumping up and down like a bunch of raving lunatics crying “foul!!” “unfair!!”.

James White thrives on all of this – he feeds on it like a parasite on a dead fish.

Even if Ergun Caner bowed down and did everything the pompous James White has asked him – no DEMANDED him – to do, it would not be enough to satisfy James White. James White is out to destroy Ergun and Emir Caner.

Wow – big red bull-sheizah flag on that one there Jimmie.

How delusional are you? This would be about as likely as Hitler asking Ben Stein to dinner for a “little friendly chat”.

“in your power”…..that, friends is “worship” in a statement if I ever saw it. It’s sad, It’s grotesque. It’s creepy. It’s telling of James White’s obsession, and how deep it goes.

@droakley1689 thrives on attacking @emircaner & @erguncaner like a parasite feeding on decay.

Then the finale:

– link

She then tweets twice – once to a friend, providing a link – then to Dr. White – to make sure he sees it, I suppose.

@droakley1689 @bobbycapps He (james white) promotes the demon presiding over sexual abuse by perpetuating his own baggage!

I will still stand by my comment that linking to James Whites’ sister’s blog was not an attack on James White – but an observation about why he attacks Dr. Caner with such strange ferocity.

Apparently for Diane, it’s perfectly fine to spread gossip all over the internet. To assault the character of someone she has never met. To tell others to “drop it, for the sake of Christ” about Caner – in the same post she brings up shameful, untrue allegations from someone else she likewise has never met.

Folks, this is not only inconsistent – it’s unconscionable. Dr. White has addressed the subject, as distasteful as it is. A simple search on his youtube channel will show it to you. Further – this has nothing to do with the subject, whatsoever.

As for Mr. Wario – I find it utterly, appallingly inconsistent for him to allow that comment to be posted (and all of his comments are moderated) but not mine. It’s all right to allow someone to post libelous commentary about the person you are asking to stop “attacking” a brother (when in reality he is calling that brother to repentance) – but not okay for someone to point out your own inconsistencies in your comment. Additionally, I find it amazing that he attacks Dr. White himself throughout this piece, the comments, and via twitter – while trying to say that we can never publicly respond to public comments. Further, he is making public rebukes to me – while saying that we shouldn’t publicly rebuke people

Just a final note to Mr. Wario – your own words.

I believe in restoration of a fallen Christian and not gossip them in public.

Note that restoration comes AFTER a man admits that he sinned, and repents. You let Diane skip right over the second part. You skip right over the Biblical pattern in your assumption that he HAS repented. You skip over the fact that Dr. Caner denies everything that we have demonstrated, through thorough research. Legal documents, that show he was there prior to the age that he claims he got here – repeatedly.

It is hardly “gossip” when the facts are demonstrable, plain, and incontrovertible. Ergun Caner has lied to a great, great many people – about where he is from, what he knows, how old he was when he converted, and a host of other things. As I told you in the comment previous:

I’d like to point something out to you. By defending Dr. Caner, you are undermining your own testimony. When you defend a man who is patently, obviously, lying to a great extent about himself, his background, and his expertise, you are damaging your OWN credibility. You are a convert from Islam. No one questioning Dr. Caner’s honesty from our side remotely questions that he is, as well. However, by defending him – from no logical basis, as far as I can tell – you are damaging your OWN credibility as a witness to Muslims. His damaged credibility will thereby attach to you.

Please, sir – for the sake of your own ministry to Muslims, and that of others of us, please stop.

The ball is in Dr. Caner’s court to repent. The ball, my friend, is also in your court to repent. Delete that shameful comment, please. I couldn’t care less if you publish mine now – it’s a bit late for that. The inconsistency you just displayed to us by allowing that one through is absolutely amazing. Go look up a bit of Wes Widner’s history with Dr. White, as well – and what he has called Dr. White, and others, in the past. Examine yourself, repent, and sin no more. You know I accurately identified your lack of logical argumentation for what it is. I have no interest in attacking you. If I wanted to attack you, I’d be @ing to everyone I know on twitter, as you seem to do with your posts. I have no interest in this being anything other than a public call to repentance – as Dr. White has issued with Dr. Caner, when he was blocked from further conversation. You do know that Dr. white attempted to resolve these matters in private, first, correct? That others of us asked Dr. Caner the same questions as well? That Dr. Caner has now blocked practically everyone who has criticized him at all, now? In a biblical model of repentance, what is the next step there? Bring it before the whole church. This has been brought to Liberty – to Dr. Caner – and now to everyone, as he has refused to repent. As I said – I have every interest in attempting to call you to repentance and restoration. Please, for the sake of the Gospel – stop what you are doing and take a good hard look at yourself, and the effect on your ministry if you continue.

~RK

(P.S. – click on “About” to the top left – my full bio is there. Most users in Dr. White’s chat channel have a “username” that they use to chat under. This is mine. It also has been my online username for almost two decades. Note that Dr. White also uses one – DrOakley1689. Is he “hiding himself”? Instead of jumping to conclusions, why don’t you ask – or look?)