Archive for the ‘ Screwtape ’ Category

Once upon a time, in a wild little channel called #Scripture, a group of atheists sat there and mocked. For hours. Here’s how it went, including the title story, at the end.

[avalanch_] one does not deal with the irrational undesireables by taking them seriously and trying to argue with them. they refuse to listen to reason afterall.
[avalanch_] thus, much as we ridicule neo-nazi’s, so too must we ridicule theists.
[avalanch_] i can not help being superior.
[glk] Jesus stories do not sound like historical data. All gods are based on faith.
[ridge_`] avalanch_: in the end, it’s the most effective means of dispelling myths.
[avalanch_] ridge: i agree. the more we ridicule theism, the more the smart people will realize theism just isn’t cool and respect-worthy
[RazorsKiss] Prv9:8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. (NAS)
[glk] Feel free to correct my facts
[RazorsKiss] avalanch_: the more you show disdain, the more you show condescension, the more it’s apparent what the fruit of your worldview is.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: do you not disdain criminals? do you not disdain the intolerant? the bigoted? have you no disdain for those that are simply less than you?
[avalanch_] no single religion has ever included more than 50% of humans.
[RazorsKiss] Who are the criminals? Who are the intolerant? Who are the bigoted? Who consider others less than themselves?
[RazorsKiss] Those who are consumed by overweening pride.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: so, you have no disdain for pedophiles and rapists?
[RazorsKiss] Thus, we can see the fruit of your worldview.
[RazorsKiss] pedophiles and rapists have a disdain for their victims.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: and yet you have no disdain for them?
[RazorsKiss] I’m no better than they are.
[RazorsKiss] Neither are you.
[RazorsKiss] The true problem is that you think you are.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: ofcourse you’re better than they are. as am i. we are not all created equal, no matter what you might think.
[RazorsKiss] I don’t think we were. I think we’re all equally sinful by nature, however.
[glk] I never sin. Sin is violations of a religion rule. I have no religion or god.
[RazorsKiss] And what you disdain, I consider equally created in the image of God, if not identical in giftedness.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: so, god created pedophiles? and this is a god you WORSHOP? what is WRONG with you?
[RazorsKiss] No, God created humans.
[RazorsKiss] Humans sin.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: we have no evidence of that whatsoever.
[RazorsKiss] So you’ll assume, yes.
[RazorsKiss] Some sin sexually, some sin intellectually.
[avalanch_] yet all are created equally by your god apparantly
[glk] I never sin. Sin is violations of a religion rule. I have no religion or god.
[RazorsKiss] We are created as humans, yes – and all humans have the image of God in their ability to think, and to act.
[glk] I was born, not created by any gods
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: so now *god* is a pedophile?
[glk] Gods are not detected. People invent gods and write holy books.
[glk] There was no Adam, Eve, original sin, talking snake, magic trees, Fall or world flood. Genesis is mythology.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: i’m sorry, i just can not believe in a god that allows such people to exist
[glk] There was no 6 day creation or Noah Flood. Genesis is mythology.
[RazorsKiss] Is equivocation your usual debate tactic?
[glk] Modern people lived over 200,000 years ago. Cave art dates to 30,000 years old. The first hominids date to about 6 million years old.
[RazorsKiss] Or do you just do that when you lack an argument?
[RazorsKiss] Fallacies don’t become the eminently superior, do they?
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: i think the fact that evil exists in the world is reason enough not to worship god.
[avalanch_] this is hardly a fallacy
[glk] I detect none of the gods, Allah to Zeus.
[RazorsKiss] I think that argument by equivocation is hardly a sound argument.
[glk] Modern people lived over 200,000 years ago. Cave art dates to 30,000 years old. The first hominids date to about 6 million years old.
[RazorsKiss] Let’s set up your argument as propositions, shall we?
[avalanch_] let’s not.
[RazorsKiss] 1. God created men.
[RazorsKiss] 2. Some men are pedophiles.
[RazorsKiss] 3. God is a pedophile.
Is this a sound argument, avalanch_?
[glk] Modern people lived over 200,000 years ago. Cave art dates to 30,000 years old. The first hominids date to about 6 million years old.
[RazorsKiss] Or is that a rampant equivocation?
[glk] There is no evidence for a Noah flood
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: 1. god supposedly created man IN HIS OWN IMAGE, 2. some men are rapists.
[glk] No water exists to flood the earth
[RazorsKiss] Define image.
[avalanch_] no, *you* define it. you’re the one who believes it.
[RazorsKiss] Why, you’re the one using it in an argument.
[RazorsKiss] Shouldn’t you be able to define what you’re attacking?
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: nope.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: you’re the one that made the claim god created us in his image. not me.
[glk] No science or history reference agrees with your stories.
[RazorsKiss] Well, I thought you were interested in a rational discussion – it seems I was mistaken.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: rational? with someone like you? surely you jest.
[RazorsKiss] Given that your first attempt at a “rational” argument was a demonstrable fallacy, I really find the accusation amusing.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: what on earth makes you think i was trying to hold a rational debate with you? you deserve nothing but my ridicule.
[glk] Gods do nothing
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: if i was trying to hold a rational debate, i certainly wouldn’t do it here.
[RazorsKiss] heh.
[RazorsKiss] then come over to #apologetics.
[avalanch_] i’d rather not. they’re as irrational over there as they are here.
[glk] I am old and very wise.
[RazorsKiss] oh… so what you’re saying is, you assume irrationality a priori.
[RazorsKiss] Right, well. That’s certainly… rational.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: anyone who believes in a magic skydaddy can’t possibly be very rational on the subject.
[ridge_`] avalanch_: again, ridicule debate works best. Do not stray from the system.
[RazorsKiss] yes, that’s certainly showing the massive depth and weight of your argumentation 😀
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: again, you are under the mistaken impression that i’m trying to hold a rational debate here.
[RazorsKiss] create a strawman… call it names… then dismiss it.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: don’t project.
[avalanch_] ridge: i concur.
[avalanch_] ridge: unfortunately they seem to mistake my mockery for attempts at rational arguments.
[avalanch_] ridge: which only serves to further heighten my amusement at ridiculing them
[RazorsKiss] or, perhaps, it’s all you’re capable of?
[ridge_`] You expect too much.
[avalanch_] ridge: well i do have standards.
[RazorsKiss] We could turn it around.
[RazorsKiss] Let’s say there’s a group that believe in random uniformity.
[RazorsKiss] That everything random is random in a uniform manner.
[RazorsKiss] Always random, just the same.
[RazorsKiss] These folks all assume that everything happens the same way.
[RazorsKiss] But that it all happens randomly, of course.
[RazorsKiss] And that this uniform randomness somehow gave rise to order.
[RazorsKiss] This uniform randomness is governed by something called entropy.
[RazorsKiss] This entropy ensures that things stay orderly.
[RazorsKiss] Because, after all, there has to be a reason for a magic boom.
[RazorsKiss] That magic boom created something from nothing!
[RazorsKiss] The nothing, which became something, had no reason for being something.
[RazorsKiss] But, because it was something, it couldn’t reasonably just stay nothing.
[RazorsKiss] It had to expand.
[RazorsKiss] In an orderly fashion, of course.
[RazorsKiss] Because entropy said so.
[RazorsKiss] This entropic order which expanded the nothingness into something, with it’s random uniformity, decided, in a randomly uniform whim, to start becoming things.
[RazorsKiss] Those things were obeying laws.
[RazorsKiss] Those laws are immaterial things with no origin, and no reason, that mysteriously ignore quite seriously, any attempt at reason.
[glk] The laws came from the big bang
[RazorsKiss] It’s quite a mystery, in a completely rational universe.
[RazorsKiss] Of course, this rationality has no origin, and it governs everything – sensibly, of course.
[RazorsKiss] For no reason, with eminently reasonable guidelines.
[RazorsKiss] Now, all of this something, which came from nothing, and is orderly in it’s obedience to entropy
[RazorsKiss] In it’s eminent reasonableness, decided to become orderly matter – which random caromed around the universe.
[glk] Laws made the order, like electricity and gravity
[glk] Solar systems for naturally
[RazorsKiss] Sure, glk – it’s lawfully obeying entropy in an orderly fashion.
[RazorsKiss] Everyone knows that, after all.
[RazorsKiss] They teach it in schools!
[RazorsKiss] So, anyway, where was I?
[RazorsKiss] Oh, yes. Orderly matter.
[RazorsKiss] Blindly obeying the random laws of nothing in particular, for no reason whatsoever.
[glk] You obey the blind laws of nature
[RazorsKiss] Right.
[RazorsKiss] So. This matter spends a long time – which is our new hero!
[RazorsKiss] And this time doesn’t obey random chance. oh, no.
[RazorsKiss] It has a goal! Entropy set it into motion, and it’s function is to overcome the evil forces of entropy
[RazorsKiss] Doesn’t that make it all better?
[RazorsKiss] So, our hero, time, spends… billions of years. Doing not a whole lot.
[RazorsKiss] Just blindly ticking.
[glk] The earth is 4.57 billion years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
[RazorsKiss] Watching atoms spin around.
[RazorsKiss] It’s great fun.
[RazorsKiss] If time could have fun, and was anything but a deus ex machina.
[RazorsKiss] But, all assumptions have a deus ex machina – and time is ours!
[RazorsKiss] So, time does all sorts of incalculable things over countless eons…
[RazorsKiss] (because, duh – there was no one to count them?)
[RazorsKiss] And then we magically have a planet, built completely out of popsicle sticks and paper mache.
[avalanch_] i don’t think you understand how gravity works.
[glk] Over 300 other planets are observed
[RazorsKiss] And a big fireball, formed out of time’s massive boredom.
[avalanch_] but that’s okay. you’re oberying it anyway
[RazorsKiss] But then time realized that was all a dumb idea
[RazorsKiss] And went back to the original mindless plan
[RazorsKiss] Of spending forever, waiting for something to happen
[RazorsKiss] Well, all sorts of things happened, as far as is assumed – because noone was there to observe it
[RazorsKiss] And then there was a planet – and it was all due to chance and time.
but chance wasn’t really the hero. Time was.
[avalanch_] no, it was thanks to gravity actually
[glk] They can look back in time close to the big bang
[RazorsKiss] yeah, I guess all of those immaterial, and inexplicable magic laws had a bit to do with it.
[avalanch_] how did god? same fricking problem
[RazorsKiss] But we can’t go spoiling time’s heroic epic, can we?
[glk] it was the origin of space time matter and energy
[RazorsKiss] This is about TIME!
[RazorsKiss] Not about some silly laws that have no explanation from a naturalistic perspective!
[glk] The origin of the big bang is unknown
[RazorsKiss] We can’t go yammering on about some bunch of laws that just exist, can we?
[avalanch_] glk: m-model dude. M MODEL!
[avalanch_] ofcourse we can
[RazorsKiss] And the magic explosion is NOT CRITICAL
[RazorsKiss] Time, as everyone knows, is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of it all.
[avalanch_] it’s not an explosion.
[RazorsKiss] Don’t interrupt me, I’m mocking.
[avalanch_] *that* is mocking?
[RazorsKiss]Are you seriously expecting this to be a rational debate?
[avalanch_] don’t be preposterous.
[RazorsKiss] I can’t believe you could be so stupid as to think this was all about you.
[RazorsKiss] I mean really.
[RazorsKiss] Does the world revolve around you?
[RazorsKiss] Are you some sort of flat-earther? get real. I’m mocking here.
[RazorsKiss] Don’t confuse yourself – people are trying to mock.
[RazorsKiss] And mocking is key to the success of your time here.
[RazorsKiss] Remember that – it’s critical.
[RazorsKiss] So, anyway.
[RazorsKiss] The heroic time, and his bumbling, blinded sidekick, random chance
go reeling through history, screwing everything up, according to entropy’s orders
[RazorsKiss] And, automagically – because we assume this a priori – we couldn’t be telling this story otherwise, could we?
[RazorsKiss] Some rocks turn into magical pre-life amino acids
[RazorsKiss] It’s quite a loving sight
[glk] That is part of the mystery
[avalanch_] i wouldn’t call them magical.
[glk] Amino acids form naturally
[RazorsKiss] The heroes watching the mysterious, magical amino acids… gurgling
[RazorsKiss] Just… doing whatever magical things amino acids do.
[glk] Carbon meteorites contain amino acids
[RazorsKiss] And then, after about a billion years of staring
[RazorsKiss] They’re living organisms!
[ridge_`] We should have the science and knowledge NOW, what we’ll have in 200 yrs from now, if not for that blasted magic stratosphere man.
[RazorsKiss] It’s really an unremarkable thing, because, after all, no one’s around to remark
and no one will care for a billion or two more years
[avalanch_] ridge: hell, if the ancient greek civilization had continued, we could have been living on mars for centuries now
[RazorsKiss] Not that caring has any possible significance, even to modern descendants of those amino acids
[RazorsKiss] But, we digress!
[ridge_`] Time to crush this thing once and for all. But HOW?
[avalanch_] ridge: nanophage
[ridge_`] Facts do no good.
[RazorsKiss] And time, being a bit of a patient type, keeps enduring random chance’s bumbling lack of progress
[avalanch_] ridge: i’m telling you, nanophage. just a little mass genocide.
[RazorsKiss] But, entropy, with it’s constant need to tear things down
[RazorsKiss] Manages to form complex living creatures
[RazorsKiss] And random chance is mighty put out.
[RazorsKiss] Let me tell ya. he was still enjoying watching the amino acids, and now he has to try to screw something ELSE up.
[RazorsKiss] Entropy was seriously falling down on the job, you know?
[RazorsKiss] And random chance just wasn’t going to take this lying down.
[glk] The Stanley-Miller experiment produced amino acids from simple gas mixtures
[RazorsKiss] All of this added complexity just wasn’t working for him.
[RazorsKiss] See, it made more work for random chance
[RazorsKiss] And who wants more work?
[RazorsKiss] But time was inexorable
[RazorsKiss] You know him – he stops for no… complex organism
[RazorsKiss] I think I’ll stop story time for now – tune in next time for “random chance: multiplied unimaginably, and still unable to stop unlikely mutation!”
~The End

Screwtaping the Inscrutable: DarkSyd

(Note: I have no intention of explaining how the correspondence which I now offer to the public fell into my hands.)

My Dear Wormwood,

I note that you seem to bear the unmistakable marks of a sort of glee – if infernal beings can be said to express such. I would caution you – no matter how mistakenly adamant they are – no matter how infernal they become – they are all still, sadly, redeemable. Kindly refrain from such activity in the future. It mirrors too closely the “joy” with which the Enemy welcomes these creatures into His supposed “rest”. It makes me cringe just to think about it.

I did, in fact, read the message the human wrote. It is, in many respects, quite worthy of many who walk the hallowed halls of Our Father Below. However, I once again remind you; they are changeable creatures, and given to the loathsome activity called “repentance”. This letter grows more distasteful, the more I write. However, your instruction results in my appetite being assuaged – so I shall overcome my natural repugnance of discussing the Enemy’s ways and strategies. You do well to assume this creature is well on his way to Our Father’s House. It is a thrilling feeling, is it not? To watch some sniveling mortal scamper his way to his own demise, with not a thought to his eternal state. It is almost too easy, with some of them. There is the delectable crunch of “moral authority”, of “outraged sensibilities”, and “repugnance for the restriction of natural freedom” just wafting off the pages of this exquisite missive. It is truly a masterpiece of self-deceit and ambiguous outrage against he knows not what. I can almost taste this one. Let me do you a small favor, my dear, most esteemed Wormwood, and describe the sensations emanating in waves from it, so that you may get a full picture of the depths he has fallen – and how much you have to lose, if you manage to lose this one.

Joe I think you you misunderstand; I’m glad you’re ruining the reputation of your faith. I’m happy you working hard to prevent anyone from saving it. Just as I’m glad Osama bin Laden is ruining the rep of his faith. There’s no way anyone from outside your cult could have managed to screw it up like those inside can. My hope is that both the Neo-Islamic and Neo-Christian violent extremists continue to screw it up.

I love his use of rhetoric and comparison! He not only vilifies the Enemy, and his slavering minions as the real “Enemy” – he manages to work in a half dozen negatively connotative words to describe the Enemy’s forces! Not only that, he lumps the Islamics (and, let me tell you – they are one of Our Father’s greatest achievements!) along with the Christians – while simultaneously implying that violence and Christianity are one and the same! Truly a masterwork, my dear Wormwood. In the opening sentence, he establishes his thesis – and instead of attempting to prove it – he simply attacks, and attacks! (As I have told you before – arguments will never win souls for Our Father. The trouble about argument is that it moves the struggle onto the Enemy’s ground.)

This is a worldwide struggle against the forces of ignorance and superstition Vs those of reason and rationality. You’re doing your part to insure low recruitment in the industrialized world for Neo-Christianity, and Al Qaeda is doing the same for violent Islamic fanaticism. By acting the way your both are, you’re helping the rest of humanity see you for the immoral violent fanatics you all are. And being an atheist, I see that as a good thing. (Throwing in a Gay Military Hooker working for you at the White House was beyond my wildest hopes!)

Ah, I see here that he is trotting out several of our finest works, all in succession. You truly have done great things. He frames the question as a battle (which, of course, we have made “acceptable, if you are fighting against the Enemy – but not if you are fighting for Him. Another great advance by our philologists!), while simultaneously frames the enemy as “superstitious”, “ignorant”, and throws in the egregious “violent”, in application to what he is comparing our Enemy’s forces to. Brilliant! He then throws in the blanket “immoral”, drops the hammer with “fanatics” (a wonderful word, “fanatic!), and then brings in some temporal failing to “prove” the immorality of a political leader affiliated with them! No worry that he disagrees with whether what this person did was immoral – as long as the people which he is being appellative considers it so! Of course, if challenged, he will respond only that he was pointing out hypocrisy. Such is the nature of our game.

When you signed off on torture and death (And by ‘you’ I mean both Islamicists and Neo-Christians) and the whole violent religious kick, you lost any and all claims to morality. You’re done, in the eyes of the world. Finished. And I can now honestly say that my atheist subjective quirky morality far outstrips the horrid set of ethics the Islamo-Christian fanatics demonstrate everytime they open their mouths.

Ah, such a wonderfully delightful outrage! What makes it better still is that he doesn’t know what exactly he is outraged against! He claims that Islam and Christianity are equivalent – yet makes no equivalence apparent. From there, he makes the leap from “since I have said you lost all moral claims” to “thus, you have no claim to morality”. Infernal! Do you see what fruits our patient work in the “subjectivism” field have brought? There is no “ethics” – there is “a” set of ethics! Not only that – he doesn’t even mention which supposed ethics are the horrid ones! General, unprovable claims are the best. Our “natural selection” efforts have prove this quite effectively, have they not?

When evil rears its ugly head, you’re either with it or against it. And until you renounce that association with violence, you’re with it. So I’m glad you did it, because now I can handily dispel any illusions you may have once had about being ‘more moral’ than the next guy. I’m glad because now I revel in my vastly superior set of ethics while your own faith gets dragged into the gutter of bloodshed and violence. Anytime one of you brings up morality, all we need do is mention Alebrto Gonzales and the moral argument is over, and I win.

Ah, such a wonderfully convoluted thought process he has! With no inconvenient definition for evil – just a fuzzy, ill-defined label which brings all of the connotations, with none of the specific side-effects, like guilt, he removes any way to argue specifically against him. By couching everything in amorphous terms, he can attain heights of authority inconsistent with fact. By continually hammering home the fact that “moral” consists of “being more moral then the next guy” (completely contrary to any sort of Enemy standards), he can totally redefine the argument to his own wishes. He can also “revel” – because he has destroyed absolute – and can determine whatever standard of “morality” anyone has – and always have his own reign supreme. He is the only judge of it, after all. (Ah, the taste will be exquisite. “Righteous Indignation” – sauteed in the juice of “unalloyed gall”. Delectable. But I digress.)

American Evangelical Neo-Christianity and violent Islamis Fascism is so now percieved as so foul, so immoral, so distasteful to the civilized world, that you’ve helped end religion’s hold over humanity down the road by poisoning the well. I duobt you can crawl out of that pit in the eyes of the world at this point any time soon, no matter what good deeds you do.

Aha! He not only fails to give any specifics of this so-called immorality, which might be refuted – he doesn’t even bother to even obliquely refer to them! He simply states that the Enemy’s forces are (once again) equivalent to the Islamic branch of our farming operations! Irony can be infernal. Not even we, if we were so inclined, could think the irony here is funny. It’s just… too infernal. He uses emotionally connotative words, yet again – which only reinforce the illogic, and irresistibility of the non-argument, to the easily swayed. A work of ugliness, most definitely – and I am a connoisseur. He then totally dismisses any concept of good – in his quest for “smoking out evil”! Ah, it is so… refreshing (do I dare use that word?) to see the log removal services getting so little business these days. Don’t you agree?

And that’s wonderful for mankind! The funniest thing is … all the world’s religious nutcases are so engrossed in their thirst for blood, violence, and hatred, I can openly crow over their lack of ethics and make hold them up to ridicule like I’m doing now … with no chance of you stopping or even taking me seriously! Hehe, it’s pretty cool! Ultimately, religious revival is always its own worst enemy, becuase it always goes too far and sickens decent people in the end.

This is so excessive, that I would be proud of it. It is a simple roll in the muck – with an attempt to call itself clean. Truly masterful. There is no attempt to hide the blatant illogic, the rampant misdirections, the hateful relish with which he spews his vileness in their direction – and he makes it all seem as if it is virtue! It is almost too much – he states that revival – the worst possible outcome – is sickening – to… wait… can it be? Decent people! This whimpering mortal is magnificently caught. He truly believes his own lies – to the extent where his white is black, and his black is truly white – in his own mind! He really believes this drivel! If I weren’t such a pragmatist, I would disbelieve that you had effected such a metamorphosis. It seems you have done it, however. My palate will salute you.

So, while the christian and Islamic crazies might not like what they’re producing in the long run … they can be counted on to never stop. And I’m enjoying it immenesly with every life you take, with every person you torture, with every moral code your demolish, with every child your surrogates rape. Please, for Odin’s sake, Osama, Tim Lahoye, Pat Robertson, Ameyn Zarawori: DO NOT STOP! Keep it up! The Rapture will be coming any day now! [EG].

For the final relish: He enjoys what he cannot understand – because he no longer has any conception of what the difference is between right and wrong anymore. Which have you inculcated, Wormwood? “Tolerance” as the highest “good”, or “personal freedom”? We may have to question you further, to ascertain the answer – if you succeed in keeping this one in your clutches. He is currently in a veritable pinnacle of moral equivalence – but you must ensure it lasts. If you lose this one – I will be unimaginably hungry. I may eat you instead.

Your affectionate Uncle,

Screwtape

————-
If you like this one… let me know. I may do more. Let me know if I can improve on them at all, and in what way. (It is HARD to write without using any “good” descriptives. I need to bone up on Screwtape a bit.)

~ RK

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