The Argument from Evil
Posted by RazorsKissJan 31
– In response to Hookflash vs. World‘s Carnival of the Godless entry.
In your post, you presented the argument from Evil.
The Argument from Evil essentially goes like this: If God is willing but not able to prevent evil, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able but not willing, then he is not benevolent. If he is neither able nor willing, then why call him God? If he is both able and willing, then why is there evil?
Well, let me give you an example, from the theology I know, to answer that argument, and see what you think, ok?
Let’s take it at a run. Should you be interested in the dialogue after that, we’ll continue. It’s a tough one – most good questions are.
———-
I’m interested in why you are reducing the individual questions to either-or. I’m also curious as to why you are making the assumption that those two choices are, in fact, the only two options in those particular cases.
I would define “free will” per the dictionary: “The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.”
Note the “or”. Let’s focus on the second half of that. “unconstrained by the divine will”, as that is the meaning pertinent to the discussion. Every will is, by necessity, not entirely free. Circumstances impinge, and always will. Within those circumstances, we have the ability to choose our own course of action, to the extent to which we are able.
If God is willing but not able to prevent evil, then he is not omnipotent.
I disagree with this, for several reasons.
1. Theologically
God is the master, not the “watcher”. If evil exists, it is because He allows it to exist. He may, even, will the continuation of evil.
2. Consequentially
Why? I propose that it is a consequence of His decision to allow our choices to be freely made. If those choices are evil, the results/consequences will be evil. Those choices, as they, in turn, impinge upon others, will result in evil to them, as well. That is the nature of evil. That is the nature of the world we inhabit. Actions result in consequences. God, instead of intervening to buffer, or negate, the consequences of evil actions, allows them to exist – because they were freely chosen.
3. Logically
If God removes all consequences to evil – what matter does it make if we continually commit the evil acts? We can commit evil to our heart’s content, and violate His justice – while He condones it? No. Just as every evil action has consequences for others, every evil action has consequences, when it comes to God’s Justice. God’s justice is sometimes revealed in the temporal world – but His ultimate justice will result when He judges all who have committed evil – and assigns their fate. So, there is no “injustice”. Just a temporary commutation. Criminals, necessarily, are allowed to commit evil. They would not be criminals, unless they had committed a crime. However, the crime must be committed in order for the person to become a criminal. Sentences are commuted, due only to a constraint of mercy. The judge may have mercy on the criminal, or he may exact justice immediately. It is the perogative of the judge.
God, being the ultimate Judge, has ultimate perogative. If you think about it – God says that any evil act, “large”, or “small”, is worthy of His judgement. So, the commutation of our sentence, regardless of the crime, is simply His mercy. As is the extension of His decision to allow our will to be free. You, regardless of your “criminal” status, relatively, are free of sentence – until you no longer have an option to “reform” (ie: Biblical repentance).
If he is able but not willing, then he is not benevolent.
I again disagree with both your “either-or”, and the limited choices you offer.
How is keeping someone from exercising their free will, or from experiencing the consequences of his own actions, specifically benevolent? Yes, innocent people are often hurt – but they are being hurt by another. Who chose to do so. God _could_ incinerate every evildoer as soon as the thought crosses his mind – but… have you thought of the consequences of such a policy for yourself? Have you ever lied, or cheated, or etc.? God makes no distinction.
I’m glad He doesn’t specifically intervene to prevent evil. We’d ALL be in big trouble.
If he is neither able nor willing, then why call him God?
That is the problem with reducing it down to “either-or”. If you pick your either-or right, and selectively determine the choices involved, you can get a false dilemna out of anything, with seemingly logical starting points, that are not, in fact, accurate descriptors. I also believe this argument is entirely too narrow.
If God is able to prevent evil – and doesn’t do it, because His mercy is such that He allows us to choose His mercy over His Justice – is that impotence, or graciousness?
If God is willing to prevent evil – yet does not, because then noone could choose His mercy freely – does that make Him sadistic?
There is much more to the discussion, and many more possible arguments. That was just a small “opener” attempt.
17 comments
Pingback by RazorsKiss.net » Reminder: Vox Apologia XI on March 25, 2005 at 1:28 pm
[…] ief in Christianity, or objections to aspects of God which are barriers to the above. ie: The Argument From Evil. How do we respond to arguments about, or objections made about, […]
Comment by Mark O on February 1, 2005 at 8:28 am
I have no answer to this myself, however, this is neither a short book or an easy read. However, I would not doubt that the questions put by Mr Hookflash (?) are addressed. That book is in my “inbox”, but as yet unread. 🙂
Comment by Steve Bragg on February 1, 2005 at 11:25 am
Your trackbacking appear to be broken, or I would leave one, but I thought I’d tell you that I’ve referenced this aricle over at DOUBLE TOOTHPICKS.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 1, 2005 at 1:00 pm
Yup, it’s broken. Which reminds me… I have to fix it 😀
Thanks.
Comment by Mike on February 1, 2005 at 4:01 pm
You are likely aware of this, but Alvin Plantiga’s
God, Freedom, and Evil
provides a remarkable treatment of this subject.
Plantiga is not just the best Christian philosopher of our time, but the best philosopher of our time, period. He has changed the landscape of philosopy, and some feel as though he has changed some of the questions and eliminated others by his writings.
Comment by Sonam Wanchug on February 2, 2005 at 4:08 pm
Forget about all the theological contortionists arguing over definitions. What about just simple pain? My dear father has suffered his whole life from debilitating headaches almost every day. What could possibly be the point of 79 years of pain? If my daughter, who is 3, were found playing with razor blades I would intervene immediately. If I could, I would remove the danger. I would stop my father’s pain. I understand pain – we all do. What could be simpler than just stopping it? BTW, I’m a Buddhist interested in honest religious debate.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 2, 2005 at 11:05 pm
Your daughter is not yet autonomous. She is dependent upon you, and not wise enough to know that those hurt her.
When, on the other hand, she is an adult – and picks those razorblades up, with full cognizance of the harm they can inflict – and harms herself anyway – then what?
I don’t see the parallel. We are morally responsible (as in responsible for our own actions) beings, given the freedom to choose for ourselves what we will do. A child is not.
I would direct you to the book of Job, right after Psalms, and Proverbs, in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. Job is allowed to suffer innumerable hurts, losses, and great pain as well. Why?
So that he may show his dedication to God, by keeping his trust and his faith, despite losing everything – and thus glorify God, and defeat Satan’s argument that personal loss will destroy faith in God.
Paul, the New Testament writer, had what he called a “thorn in the flesh”, which is thought to be a physical ailment, that caused him pain. This “thorn” was a goad, to teach him humility, and to test him, others have theorized.
Other pain is simply a side effect of sin in the world.
My suggested reading is “The problem of pain”, by C.S. Lewis. It’s a rather good walk down the path of the Christian treatment of why pain happens, and what our response should be to it.
Comment by Sonam Wanchug on February 3, 2005 at 9:08 am
I agree with you that most of us are morally responsible for our actions, but not all of us. That’s why I used the child example. The parallel is that if God is compassionate and does not want His children to suffer, God would remove the suffering, and remove the danger of suffering from those who do not have the choice to remove it themselves.
The idea that we are all, without exception, responsible, volitional beings is one that I have never accepted, though I wish it were so. No doubt some of us are. You and I obviously are. We have healthy bodies and minds, a decent standard of living, clean food and water, jobs, etc. Not everyone is nearly as fortunate.
There are people who, as a result of various circumstances of one kind or another, are compelled to (have no choice but to) hurt themselves and others. Drug addicts, abused spouses, people who have severe mental obstacles, to name but a few categories, have no choice. For those who have never lived under one of those burdens, it is easy to say everyone has a choice – just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get on with life! Not that simple. You may say everyone has choice, because some people do indeed change, but for every one of those who have somehow escaped their condition, there are tenfold that who go to their graves under the grip of their affliction. How did those unfortunate beings have choice?
On your point that my father’s pain is the result of sin, I understand where you are coming from with that. We Buddhists have a parallel in the concept of karma, but the difference is that the cause/result dynamic is all contained within individual beings, not shared, as I understand sin to be. So in Buddhism I may suffer, but not as the result of something others are collectively or individually doing – only as a result of my own actions.
I’m in full agreement with your idea that pain can have a character building effect, but this too is fully dependent on the level of the individual – not everyone has the wherewithal to transmute pain into spiritual fodder.
Thanks for the reading references, but I have to say that I’ll probably never get around to them, between work, family and my own religious reading. I will put the C.S. Lewis book on my to do list though.
Comment by Catez on February 4, 2005 at 9:08 am
Hi Sonam,
The difference here is that Bhuddism is about the mind. It is about a mental overcoming as I understand it. Christianity is not about pulling oneself up by one’s bootstraps. You are right in recognising that we are unable to do so. We need a power we do not have. Christianity is about the powerless of man and the power of God. It is a spiritual rebirth – a new start with a new spirit. I’ve read some on Bhuddism and it doesn’t have that – it is in essence, despite certain overlays throughout time, a rationalist belief system.
On the issue of pain – I don’t have all the answers. But there is a difference in going through pain with God and going through it without God. Jesus Himself endured suffering. The Book of Job has as one of it’s major themes the need for us not to judge the cause of a person’s illness. i.e. we do not label a person sinful because they are ill. Everyone has sinned – the word “sin” is literally translated as missing the mark. Karma is a catch-22 to my mind. We know no-one is perfect, so if Karma is the way then we are constantly paying for our sins. Christianity says the penalty is already paid – we don’t have to live in expectation of punishments because of sins. Those are legally paid for and forgiven.
There is a difference here – Bhuddism doesn’t really include the spirit of a person. And it is the spirit of a person that bears the effect of sin unless it is renewed. Hope that expalins it some more.
Comment by Sonam Wanchug on February 4, 2005 at 1:24 pm
Catez-
Buddhism is about the mind, but mind as Buddhist meditators experience it is not as simple a concept as the mind that we normally speak of, like as it is used in Western psychology. Mind in Buddhism is much closer to the Christian concept of spirit. It is the subtle, formless essence of a being that continues after the body dies.
I was not saying that it was a Christian viewpoint to declare that everyone must pull themselves up. My point was that everyone does not have free will. I just mentioned the bootstraps idea to reinforce my argument against Razorskiss claim above that everyone has choice.
I understand most of what you are describing about the Christian world-view, but I would posit that karma is much more similar to boilerplate Christianity than you would think. Christ talked about cause and effect quite a bit: rewards, seeds and fruits, you reap what you sow, etc. Is it your position that there is no consequence for sinful behavior as long as I believe in Christ as my savior? Because belief in Christ is not enough to stop sinful behavior. Karma says that there is a consequence for everything.
Finally, being able to pigeonhole Buddhism after reading a few books about it would be like pigeonholing Lord Jesus after reading Matthew a couple times. I have been studying and practicing Buddhism for going on 25 years and still feel like a novice. All I’m saying is if you want to debate other religious viewpoints, you better have more than a cursory understanding of them. The topic of Karma, for instance, has volumes of books dedicated to it, and a lifetime of meditation to realize it.
I’m glad that you are reading some Buddhist literature, not because I want to convert you, but because hopefully it will break down misunderstandings between religions. My study of Christianity has done nothing if not deepened my understanding of Buddhism, because the core concepts are practically identical. Different names, but essentially the same. It drives some people crazy when I say this but this is what I experience.
The more I think about this, maybe it’s just a bunch of hot air, this trying to disprove another’s religion. I love debating religious ideas, but would probably do better to practice what I’ve been taught.
Comment by Catez on February 5, 2005 at 12:39 am
Hi Sonam,
You are right in the sense that we are not free. The bible teaches that we are spiritually either slaves to sin or slaves of righteousness. Yes, I can understand people going “crazy” when you say Bhuddism and Christianity are very similar. However they aren’t. Christianity centers on the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also in essence is about a regenerated spirit made possible only by that sacrifice. One becomes empowered to do righteousness. I think we need to look at what is meant by the consequences of sin – yes, our sins can have consequences. But in Christianity the eternal consequence, or penaly, is removed. Bhuddism doesn’t provide that. So while, for example, I may sin by losing my temper with some-one and saying something hurtful, with the consequence that they are angry, and the relationship is damaged – as a Christian I can confess that and be forgiven by God. And I have newness of spirit to go back and do the right thing by the person. What Bhuddism doesn’t address is the penaly that has been paid for sin – the eternal consequence. It is a rational system, in the sense that by definition and content it is devised by man. It leaves the question begging – where does our spirit come from? Why is there a penaly for sin? How, in eternal terms, can we be liberated? You don’t need a lifetime of meditation to receive the liberty of Christ and regeneration of spirit possible in Christianity. This is the generosity of God, who is good. Christianity is based on forgiveness and reconciliation. No-one deserves it, no-one can attain it by themselves, or by meditating or spending their life trying to perfect their own spirit. Bhuddism does not involve an outside agency. Christianity does. So they are very different.
Comment by Sonam Wanchug on February 7, 2005 at 3:22 pm
Catez-
Please use some paragraph breaks in your arguments. I don’t know which of your statements belong together, which makes them hard to respond to.
I understand what you mean by, “Christianity centers on the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also in essence is about a regenerated spirit made possible only by that sacrifice.” I accept that this is your world-view, and that it is true for you and provides everything you need in a spiritual path. And I would not in any way want to steer you away from this. The reason that I entered into this discussion was to add to the debate on what is reality and how do we get at it. Belief will only take me so far. For me, the main way to get at it is through logic and gut conviction, often based on experience.
The point of these arguments for me is not to prove Buddhism is right and Christianity is wrong, but to freely discuss the conceptual and experiential foundations of each in the hopes of bringing some understanding to all involved. And, arguing that Buddhism is wrong because the Christian world-view is the correct view is not a logical argument. If we are going to debate at all, then we both have to use a framework that we both agree on, such as basic logic. If you folks want to debate with non-Christians, just know that you are not winning any hearts over by demanding that all arguments must proceed from a Christian-defined reality.
If you agree in your first sentence that we are not free, then you accept my point that God is either unwilling or unable to stop our suffering (see the earlier discussion above). The result would then be this: if I am a slave to sin and unsuccessfully struggle against it my whole life, only to lose, then basically I’m just out of luck, and am punished with eternal unimaginable pain. Still waiting for Razorskiss to weigh in on this.
Where did you get the wrong idea that Buddhism does not provide for removal of the penalty of sin or (negative karma)? For it does. Long discussion how this happens. But I get the feeling you’re not interested.
You say, “…(Buddhism) is a rational system, in the sense that by definition and content it is devised by man.” Not so. Buddhist knowledge was imparted by enlightened beings. Humans, as we usually think of them, are trapped in uncontrolled recurring lives. If you say that the Buddha was a man, I would say that who the Buddha is changes based on the level of who is viewing him, because from a Buddhist world-view, reality is relative to the observer. Something like in quantum mechanics.
When you say, “What Bhuddism doesn’t address is the penaly that has been paid for sin – the eternal consequence.” this is based on my accepting the reality of an eternal hell. Which I don’t. Buddhism does accept hells, but they are not eternal.
You ask where does spirit come from? From a Buddhist perspective, it is beginningless, like your concept of where God comes from. There is no point in time where an individual spirit (mind) popped into existence. It has always existed. Can I prove it to you? Absolutely not. But this is what I accept and have conviction in based on the study of karma and ultimate reality.
You ask why is there a penalty for sin? From a Buddhist perspective, there is no penalty for there is no punisher. Suffering is the direct result of previously harming others. The laws of karma dictate that all phenomena result from previous causes with the exception of a few things like empty space. And we say it’s like gravity – you don’t have to believe in it for it to function.
You ask how, in eternal terms, can we be liberated? Long discussion. Buddhist philosophy has many levels of practice and I would have to know which level you are inquiring from. I don’t say this to sound highfalutin, but to illustrate that Buddhism is not a simple thing that you can easily dismiss. If you do dismiss it in debate you won’t be taken seriously. I had a debate with a Christian once and it turned out his entire knowledge of Buddhism came from Christian brochure that dismissed Buddhism as a cult and listed talking points on how to argue. Not a great foundation for an honest discussion. What were the books you read on Buddhism?
Contrary to your understanding, Buddhism does involve outside agencies, namely countless enlightened beings. Can they stop our pain? No, for if they could, they would. What they can do is teach us how to remove our own pain, by removing its causes: unawareness, hatred and clinging to objects which have no essence. Sound familiar?
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 7, 2005 at 6:04 pm
I’m seeing a few things here.
1. Disconnect in definition.
Buddhism defines virtually everything central to Christianity in wildly disparate terms – so, to be blunt – you two aren’t even on the same page.
Christianity’s central tenets are sin, the imperfectability of man, the infinite, all-powerful God, the “only one way to heaven” atonement for sin by a single Savior, the doctrine of an eternal, inescapable hell, and an eternal, inescapable grace. Among others, of course, but those are some hallmarks which are mutually exclusive with Buddhism.
2. Disconnect in argumentation types
Sonam, as it looks to me, is arguing from similarities. Catez, on the other hand is arguing from differences. Buddhism, as I understand it, is very inclusive. Christianity, by it’s very definition, is exclusive. There is only one to salvation, only one way to be granted it, and only one Lord to swear allegiance to, to obtain it.
3. Disconnect in purpose
Sonam, it appears, is trying to give the Buddhistic philosophy’s explanation for the existence and mitigation of pain and suffering. Catez, on the other hand, is pointing out the differences, and failings in that system from the Christian worldview.
When you compare the two, you get some very different concepts going back and forth – and some very disparate goals we’re aiming at.
I’m not sure I’m going to weigh in. I tend to have the goal of deconstructing other religious philosophies of reality, (as compared to the Christian worldview) rather than “find a common ground”, honestly. Christianity is an exclusive religion, and thus tends to refrain from any attempts to “reconcile” differing or opposing belief systems. We take what we believe seriously – that there is “only one way to God”. So, if you want a debate, I’ll weigh in, sure. If you want to “find a common ground”, however, I sincerely, and most sorrowfully regret to inform you that I will, and cannot find one – because anything which teaches that anything other than acceptance of the Lordship of Jesus will lead to salvation – is false – and should be confronted as such. In my view, if I grant “valid view” status to any other view of reality other than the one that is correct, I’m adulterating the truth. You are free to defend your position, of course – but accomodation is not something the Christian worldview does. A worldview based upon the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-everything God brooks no equality. Such a thing would be anathema to the very concept we believe in. That concept, incidentally, excludes ALL other concepts as not only invalid – but inherently false. So, although I appreciate information concerning the worldview of Buddhism – understand that Christianity neither accepts nor legitimizes any other worldview, in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it lends itself to an active (offensive, in the military sense) philosophical point of view. Christianity, like Judaism, and the Islamic worldview, accepts no other worldview as valid, where it deviates from that standard. Even this concept is antithetical to Buddhism, as I understand it – correct?
Don’t take that to think I don’t want a discussion – but, I dislike having a discussion under false pretenses. If you want to discuss an issue, keep in mind that anything contrary to Biblical philosophy, doctrine, or theology will be confronted as such. So… yeah.
I don’t want to run off commenters from other perspectives, or worldviews. I really don’t. I also don’t want anyone to think “common ground” in certain areas exist, either – where, in fact, there is none. Francis Schaeffer said this, once: “Confrontation of what is wrong is necessary in the Christian life. Loving confrontation, but confrontation, nonetheless.”
So, keep that in mind. Blog on.
Comment by Sonam Wanchug on February 9, 2005 at 12:04 pm
Very honest, Razorskiss. Your position on other religions explains a lot, but if you are already right in everything, and point to the infallibility of the Bible as your proof, we may as well all just fold up our tents and go home. No debate on this blog, just dogma.
There is much that I accept but cannot prove about Buddhism, but our view is that this is a good thing, and not a weakness. I have enough faith in my religion to make it effective but am not so beyond reason such that it retards my spiritual growth, for unshakable conviction is built upon personal experience – not unquestioning allegiance to what the Lord Buddha said. Blind faith is not very useful for it eventually crumbles or is plagued by subtle doubt.
No matter how militant your approach is, you can’t escape the fact that there are shades of gray in religion. No religion I know of is tidy. I get the feeling from you that it’s completely black and white and God help the poor soul who doesn’t believe precisely as you want him to believe or just was in the wrong place in the wrong time. And I say you because there are thousands of Christian sects who all claim their flavor is the only flavor acceptable to God. We’ll all find out one day who is right, but I’d rather spend eternity in hell with an honest prostitute than in heaven with a stadium full of self-righteous preachers.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 9, 2005 at 10:32 pm
Thank you.
I’m not, no. Do I believe the Bible is correct in all that it teaches? Yes. Should I put credence in a set of beliefs I do not honestly adhere to? No. This is the standpoint we all should be looking at the world from. If you can convince someone else of the errancy of those beliefs, you have done your job as a defender of your own worldview. Honestly, I don’t know what else you would expect on the blog of someone who claims to be a Christian apologist. Our specialty is the defense of the Christian faith. A knowledge of those beliefs, as well as the general arguments used to attack them is something apologists must have. I’m no theologian, but I’ve done a bit of this. It’s not about being right. it’s about defending your faith from those who claim it to be anything other than _the_ truth.
Actually, I didn’t mention the Bible, or it’s inerrancy once. It is true that I believe it – but suffice it to say that the inerrancy of the Bible is, indeed, a central tenet of the Christian faith. However, while I believe the Bible to be inerrant, and my faith is justified in that regard, I believe that not only is the Bible inerrant, but that Christianity is true in everything else in life. That what the Bible says is clearly, and visibly evident in every facet of life.
Our motto is to always be ready to “give a defense” to every question asked of us (as told in 1 Peter 3:15). This means in any facet of life – we must be able to give the Christian response, and be able to defend it.
Did I say that? Just because I assume you are wrong does not mean that I cannot debate. Debate does not include the acknowledgement of the validity of your opponent’s argument. In fact, it more often involves the attempt to show your opponent to be wrong. I don’t see how this is anything extraordinary. This is what I mean by “exclusive” vs. “inclusive”. Do I respect you, even though I believe you are wrong? Sure. Do I have to accept the validity of your ideas to do so? Not at all. In fact, if I think you are wrong, it is an act of love to attempt to show you error. If you feel I am in error, you are free to do the same.
I can’t “prove” that Christianity is true, either. Only eyewitnesses can have that proof. However, my belief is such that beyond a shadow of a doubt, and without a scintilla of reticence, I will tell you that I believe, with all my heart that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and will return to earth once again someday.
It is faith in the unseen that is the basis of Christianity. It is faith buttressed by evidence, sure. But it is faith all the same.
Well, that is the difference between the two. Christianity is built upon both. The faith leads to experience, which reinforces convition.
Faith is never blind. Are you saying mine is? Why so?
It’s not militant. It’s confrontational. You can confront someone, and still love them. If a loved one is doing wrong – is it really love, if you refuse to confront them, and tell them so? We are told to “love our neighbor as ourselves” – is it love if we refuse to tell them that they are wrong, and challenge them on that point? We must do it without being proud, or arrogant – but we must do it, with love, and with all of our hearts in it. I am compelled to do so by love – not by self-satisfaction.
Not so. I believe that there is, as is expressed in the Bible, one way, one truth, and one life that will lead to a relationship with God. If I refuse to share that message with others, or to challenge what I consider, and truly believe, will result in incalculable harm for the other person – what kind of monster would I be?
Yes, I believe in absolute, uncompromisable moral truth. Subjective truths do exist, in other areas, but there is only one objective moral truth. To say otherwise would be a denial of my beliefs. To debate someone who believes in such a thing is a tough row to hoe – I admit it. We will challenge your belief system every place it deviates from our own – which, you will find, will be a great, great many places. You never know, though – you might learn something. I will, in any case, learn more about Buddhism. You may also learn that Christianity is about more than rules and regulations. It really is.
Nope. There are relatively few “not-Christianity” cults who call themselves Christian. The vast, vast majority of Christian denominations (what you call sects) differ only on minor points of theology – and, we will tell you – most aren’t big enough points to matter when it comes down to it. If their theology is biblical, there is only one criteria for “correct” – “Is Jesus, the Son of God, the Lord and Master of your life?” If they can tell you yes, and mean every word – that is all the criteria for “the only way”. If anyone tells you any different, they need to quit majoring in the minors.
If I ever claim to be anything even approaching “righteous” – please, digitally slap me – and encourage all your friends to do the same. Another central tenet of Biblical Christianity is the acknowledgement of your own utter depravity. The repentance from your sin is the first step toward salvation – the second, once you realize your moral bankruptcy, is to cry out to your new Lord and Master to save you from your own sins – and to make you a new creation, spiritually. You will still have your fallen nature (ie: Yes, we screw up, all the time, and horribly.) but, your heart’s new desire will to be pleasing to your Lord, out of gratitude for His grace and love towards you. That love, and that wish to please your Lord leads you towards Him, despite your failings. That is the essence of the Christian life. A desire to please God, to love man, and to love truth – even when that truth and love requires you to confront others.
Anyway – like I said – I’m not trying to run away commenters. Just don’t expect a debate with an apologist to be an experience that affirms the truth of a belief they do not espouse, and cannot. I expect you to be just as rigorous as I would be in questioning what I believe. God does not want brainless automatons. He wants sons and daughters, who’s heart’s desire is to know, and share, Truth.
Comment by Mari Fennell on February 23, 2005 at 12:48 am
Read your discussion (Sonam the Buddhist, Catez the theologian, and RazorsKiss, and had thoughts to share.
First that these arguments are all forgetting one major point, that arguments are fine but what does God have to say in His own defense about all of this?
See, God has not left us alone to fend for ourselves and muddle through our choices. We are not at the mercy of our own devices.
He has intervened first by creating us. Secondly, He has intervened by judging the evil of the world through a flood that practically destroyed all mankind. (I’m thinking that is a major intervention:)
Then He arranged events to bring His Son Jesus into the world to live in our midst to see a picture of Himself and tell us personally who God is and what He says. This Son even died for us so the problem and penalty of sin can be dealt with, and we can receive forgiveness and a relationship with this God…another major intervention:)
Then He gives a book of facts, descriptions, and instructions about who He is, what He wants from us, what He does for us, and how to live a life that will reach heaven. He even sends the Holy Spirit to help us understand and follow these instructions. Another major intervention:)
So is this God really just a passive watcher, disinterested in the affairs of men, cutting us loose to muddle through our choices and see where we wind up?
Or is He a sadistic God who wants us to suffer from our choices and the choices of others while He waits to pronounce judgment on us all?
Or could we possibly be a bit mistaken in not acknowledging that in this book of instructions God clearly says who He is, what He wants, and what He’s up to in the world and affairs of men. Maybe He is a bit discouraged by the fact that men seem to be more concerned with their own ideas about everything, and not a bit concerned with going to the source and asking Him what He thinks about everything:) I’m thinking that we, as a human race, ought to be a bit more grateful for the love that God has for us, and the patience He shows us in light of all He has done for us, in spite of the mess we have made of the world He created for us by our precocious tendency for returning evil for good, to other people as well as toward the God who gave us life in the first place…
A bit of God’s thoughts:
Where were you when I laid earth’s foundation? Tell me if you understand who marked off it’s dimensions. Surely you know!…What is the way to the abode of light? And where does the darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the path to their dwellings? Surely you know , for you were already born…you have lived so many years…Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you “Here we are”…Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?”
Sincerely and respectfully yours, The LadyMeiLi
Comment by robert on January 9, 2007 at 8:26 pm
It seems to me that the biggest problem with argueing about whether or not God exists, is noone knows what God is…
I would say that the argument from evil is a pretty convincing arguement that such a God does not exist.
This definition (all loving, powerful, and knowing) was defined by the catholic church and not by Atheists.
Maybe (just maybe) we dont understand everything about God. Maybe he doesn’t fit into such a definition. Maybe a God can exist outside of such a definition.
Is it really that insane to admit that we dont understand. Maybe the argument from evil is a big hole in our logic.
Maybe we need to rethink our definition of what exactly a God is.