Disappointed.
Posted by RazorsKissFeb 12
So, the last few weeks, I’ve been thinking. Thinking a lot.
Here’s the general drift of it.
For apologists, we sure don’t go out and practice our trade very often – myself included. Why is that?
Now, I’m not intending to be critical, or anything. I’m just curious. Why is it that we don’t? Are we more interested in the intellectual pursuit of a defense, and less interested in the actual, real-time defense to others? I find myself cruising an atheistic, or agnostic blog – I read something I so want to respond to – and I don’t. I think about it, and might even start on it – but, eventually, I give up on it. Why?
I gave myself a pretty exhaustive list of atheistic blogs to look through – and I could cull 50 posts a day that need to be responded to out of it. Why is it I don’t? I don’t think it’s fear of ridicule. I expect ridicule. Ridicule is, in all honesty, something I think is funny. If they resort to ridicule of the stance, instead of honestly responding to it – they aren’t going to honestly respond in the first place, and they aren’t being honest with themselves. If they can’t get past ridicule, and on to intellectual examination, it’s going to be a shallow conversation anyway.
I respect someone who is consciously attempting to formulate a counter-response. I have no respect in the slightest for a shallow, satiric, or dismissive response. Appealing to some sort of so-called “ridiculous” is the last bastion of someone unwilling to think. A conscious, or unconscious attempt to escape or evade serious thought has always, and will always, annoy me.
Now, I’m not saying everyone on the atheistic/agnostic blogs resorts to ridicule, and only to ridicule, to make some sort of spurious case. I find, however, that the vast majority have a large, large element of it somewhere. Aye, that’s the rub, as Shakespeare says. I’ve rarely, rarely seen someone who begins with ridicule turn the corner to serious discourse. It’s not common, or expected. So… what are we to do? When the vast majority of our potential audience is populated by “scoffers,” and we are warned about such as these: Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts. (2 Peter 3:3)
Now, one of Job’s “friends” asks if scoffers (he is speaking to Job…) should not be silenced… (Shall your boasts silence men? And shall you scoff and none rebuke?)
But, is it he who we should listen to? *sigh*
I mean, we are to “destroy speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ”
In my Strong’s, it says “reasoning, hostile for the Christian faith”, for “speculations”. I read that to mean logical concepts antithetical to Christianity.
“Lofty thing” is a bulwark, or rampart – barrier. I read that as “barriers erected against Christian principles”.
“raised up” is pride, or “to exalt oneself”. Obvious. Humanism is the religion of human pride. It’s also what atheism is really about.
“knowledge of” is gnosis – or, ” moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living”/” the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced”
So, yes – we are supposed to go on the offensive – this is the second part of apologetics. However… how do we reconcile this with “do not throw your pearls before swine”, and the command to keep from sitting in the “seat of scoffers”? Choose your battles, I suppose. But… where to? How to?
I don’t know. I’ve done some of this. It always seems to be wading in oatmeal, though. The urge for them to create a straw man Christianity, and somehow “debunk it” just seems to be too strong in most. Or, not even bother – and just ridicule things they know little to nothing about. How do we get around that?
15 comments
Pingback by RazorsKiss.net » The Battle We Are In: Part II on February 15, 2005 at 5:19 am
[…] today. I had an absolute ball digging into this. If you remember, I was feeling a bit disappointed – unsurprisingly, God had something for me – in a rather immediate fashion. […]
Comment by Milton Stanley on February 12, 2005 at 8:10 pm
I believe strongly in the “shake the dust off your feet” approach to apologetics and evangelism. We proclaim the good news, show the case for the gospel. If they reject us, we move on to the next village (or blog). This, at least is a reasonable approach to evangelism. Would it not apply as well to apologetics?
Comment by mumon on February 12, 2005 at 8:49 pm
Sometimes ridicule is sincere, if what you interpret as “ridicule” is really a belly-laugh from those who have no need of Christianity.
Maybe you should try to have the patience to understand that we’ve seen the sales pitch before, we’ve done the honest checkup, we’ve had the dark night of the soul, and have had a wonderful morning, with all due respect.
Let’s live in peace with each other, even if you can’t convert us.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 12, 2005 at 11:09 pm
I agree Milton. It’s just… figuring out who to dialogue with to begin with. Do you challenge the ideology of those who are openly derisive, before you even open your mouth, though? That’s what I’m struggling with. See, my problem is that you often are not speaking directly to the person you’re in dialogue with.
I’ve found that often my best response is from someone “on the fense”, so to speak, who will see the difference in an absolutely held morality, for instance, and the equivocating manner of someone who espouses subjective morality. So, I find it hard to “pick my battles” – or to get the “gumption” up to do it, with certain people/at certain places.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 12, 2005 at 11:41 pm
Sincere mockery? I don’t think that was the point. I think the point was whether talking to someone who ridicules everything you stand for is even worth it, or not.
See, if they have no respect for you because of what you believe, they will not be willing to honestly, earnestly, debate the issues at hand, I’ve found. No offense intended, mumon, but I often find atheists more dogmatic than 9/10ths of the “fundamentalists” they often mock and deride. When pressed to defend the tenets of their beliefs, they either blow it off with derision, or insult you until the cows come home. Again, this isn’t directed toward you specifically. Sometimes I will find someone who know the tenets they profess to believe, and can defend them – but, the argument almost always, always, turns to “but Christians did”…
That’s as silly as a Christian debater revolving the argument against atheism around Hitler’s espousal of it, and Communism’s, and saying that this somehow constitutes a telling point – while not addressing the underlying problems that humanism/atheism bring to the table.
I have the patience. I just wonder if, by calling it a “sales pitch”, you understand just what exactly Christianity, at the heart of it, really is. It’s definitely not a “sale”. It is a self-sacrificial life – and not one which makes sense, if a value for “self-worth” means much at all to you.
The central tenets all point to the depravity and unworthiness of man, when compared to the utter worthiness of God. Which makes me wonder – who “pitched” it to you, that you would even call it a “sales pitch”?
All you receive is Love, in this “sale”. In return, you have to give up everything you are, and everything you value. Only then will you be “transformed, by the renewing of your mind”, to the type of man who can really do something with that Love – a man who can actually love God in return.
Peace isn’t the issue. Jesus said “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.”
He isn’t out to give the worldly type of peace – about that sort, He says: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
By this, He is saying that His followers must, and will be, in eternal opposition to the mandates, and practices espoused by “the world” – which, in essence, is what happens. All throughout history, and all throughout our present day – we stand directly in the way of the “speeding juggernaut” of humanism, with a hand upheld, to try and stop it’s progress – if we’re doing what we’re supposed to be doing.
It’s not a “sword”, as in a “physical violence” sword. The Bible is called the “sword of the Spirit. It is the one, and only, weapon a Christian has. That is the sword He is speaking of. That sword, when applied to the lives of His followers, will divide them, inexorably, from the views and attitudes of those who are not His followers. It’s a completely alien thing, to those who do not embrace it.
And, consequently, people mock what they do not understand, they do not believe, and do not agree with. Thus… the mockery I see from the “skeptics”. It’s fine to “test every spirit” – as long as you even know what you are looking for.
What you are looking for, and everyone else is looking for in the Church, is one thing, and one thing only: Love. That is the mark of a Christian. Unfortunately, we often do not show it. You are often right to judge us harshly – because we deserve it. However, when you see a group of Christians – persecuted, tortured, and faced with the choice of dying for that belief, or living by reneging it – and they choose to die… what does that show us? They love their Lord more than they love their own lives. They are not strapping themselves to bombs, in order to get their 40 virgins. They are given a choice – live, and do what we say – or die, believing in your Lord. To folks such as these, there are only two reactions possible.
Stunned disbelief, followed by pity – or – Tearful, prayerful awe, at the faith they displayed in their Lord.
That is what Christians face in China, and in hundreds of other places throughtout the orld today. We in America have it incredibly easy. 10 of the remaining 11 disciples died, while going to their deaths happily, and utterly convinced that Jesus died, and was raised from the dead. They were eyewitnesses. People today don’t even have that buttress to their faith.
I understand that you have faced the issue before – but it’s hard to face a rock-solid, full of love in the face of death love like that, and not be a bit awestricken by their courage.
I don’t know. I’m still discouraged – but thinking about how martyred Christians went to their deaths singing leaves me struck dumb in amazement by the intensity of their knowledge and belief. It is a whole magnitude above that we see in our worldly, self-centered churches in North America.
Comment by dwntmpo on February 12, 2005 at 11:44 pm
As far as picking your battles, maybe see how it makes you feel.. if what they say leaves you ‘confused’, then they may be confused about it and could be reasoned with.. if what they say leaves you angry.. then they probably understand why you’re angry, and really don’t care what you say..
The nice thing about the blogs tho, is many more people read, than post.. and you’re archived…
Comment by mumon on February 15, 2005 at 7:00 pm
Thanks for the reply, RazorsKiss. I of course don’t speak for “atheists’ beliefs,” although, I’ll say as a nontheist, I’ve had my share of ridicule from Christians- and sometimes from naturalist/materialists…
Anyway, re: the “self-sacrificial life,” I do know enough to know there’s a quid pro quo involved, and so, in a sense, is it really sacrificial? (In a real sense it may be- if that sacrifice is in some way harmful to one’s psychological health, and you may downplay it, but there have been instances where people have sacrificed their psychological health because they thought that’s what their deity required of them.)
What you are looking for, and everyone else is looking for in the Church, is one thing, and one thing only: Love. That is the mark of a Christian. Unfortunately, we often do not show it. You are often right to judge us harshly – because we deserve it.
You might ask yourself why; my opinion is (and I’m not alone in this opinion- folks with advanced degrees in psychology share it) that this is to a certain extent bound up in the utter depravity belief, which denigrates the efficacy of personal agency and responsibility; where personal agency is encouraged, people improve. Nobody ever got good at playing tennis by believing they cannot ever play tennis well.
But I digress.
My brother-in-law’s wife is a Chinese Christian in China. Please don’t think all Chinese Christians are persecuted; they most certainly are not. However, some most definitely are, but above all the Chinese government is concerned – to some extent legitimately in my opinion- that there are many hucksters who will try to exploit poor and ignorant people, and, at the same time, there are many people who would like to use religion as a means to stir up instability in Society. I know this for a fact.
At the same time, believe it or not, the relations between Church and State are quite different in China – in some ways, the State supports the Church (Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, etc.) to an extent that would be impossible in the US.
Remember, they know the CIA was messing around in their country well into the 1950s (this is documented independently of them, BTW), and they’re still a bit sensitive – to put it mildly- about the encroachments on their sovereignty.
Comment by mumon on February 15, 2005 at 7:02 pm
Oh, one other thing I wanted to say: somebody thought they were quoting Lenin by saying “The most important duty of a revolutionary is to survive.”
The accounts of some early martyrs I’ve read seem like “suicide by martyrdom,” and I frankly don’t think that’s very moral.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 15, 2005 at 8:01 pm
Sorry you had that happen.
The Christian doctrine of “self” is that “natural” self is naturally harmful to oneself – so, in a way, it isn’t, if what you get is better than what you have. However – in order to get the new – you have to do away with the old. That process of ridding yourself of… self… is the self-sacrifice.
Sacrifice of the old self – the sinful, depraved self, to be replaced by the self that is truer to God’s original blueprint for us.
Not in Biblical Christianity. Those who practice the tenets of Christianity would be the first to tell you that “psychological” problems are quite far from their mind. As it were 😀
Example?
It’s hard to downplay something, if it’s just a random assertion from left field – you know? So… how about I just leave it until you actually give me something 😀
Uh, yeah. “people with advanced psychology degrees agree”. That’s nice. They also say the whole world has a group consciousness, and all sorts of other twaddle. Care to make some specific, relevant claims, instead of an Anonymous Authority?
I have asked myself why. That’s what this whole series about “The Great Evangelical Disaster” is about. Why Christians aren’t acting like Christians. The basic premise is twofold: 1) They have accomodated the very basics of Christian beliefs and practice to other moralities and views – which has destroyed the very foundations of their belief – as well as their practice of them. 2) They have failed to defend Truth, as Truth – with a capital T. Instead of countering what they know is false, with what they know is true – they let it slip by – and have lost everything they held dear, as a result – all within the last 60-80 years.
The point you fail to mention is that we believe we can’t ever get good at tennis. The point is not being good – it is trying to please God, to the extent of our abilities.
Yep. Here’s an example.
You know that the Chinese government’s primary concern is to “protect people” from Religion – for a fact? They are a communist government. They ARE the people, in their own minds. They “know what’s best” for the people, in their minds. Do you not remember what it is Communism does? You must have a license to be a Christian. You must have a license to have a church, or go to one. If you do not have a license, go to their approved churches, and preach on approved topics – you are a) at risk for arrest or b) liable to have your church razed.
China does not endorse Christianity. It regulates and hamstrings it, in order to cow it – and is failing. If you really want to know about China – I can get you all the info you want. My uncle’s missionary organization has ties to a Chinese mission group. Voice of the Martyrs has lots on China, however, for starters.
Yes, such as the suppression of certain topics in pulpits, the illegality of any churches not registered with the State, and the danger of imprisonment if you do not do the above. Yeah. I’d say it’s a bit different.
I’m not going to mess with the aside about the CIA, and all that. I don’t care, to be perfectly honest – and I don’t see how it’s especially relevant.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 15, 2005 at 8:05 pm
Who? What? Where did this come from? Not on my blog 😛 I’d only quote Lenin to spit on his grave, frankly.
Which?
Why? You are very, very, very vague here – on both counts.
Comment by mumon on February 16, 2005 at 10:05 am
First, on suicide by martyrdom, The accounts of the martyrdom of Sts. Perpetua and Felicitas are great examples. It’s reminisicent of those 2 girls who went to Afghanistan and were shocked, shocked to find that the Taliban was a ruthless regime. Yeah.
The people are living in dust and dirt and extreme repression, and the first thing they don’t need is somebody who has a death wish.
Lenin was right about not being a martyr.
On China: I know you haven’t been there, but believe me, the people that are screaming the loudest about things like this aren’t telling you the whole truth. China wants to keep out the Paul and Jan Crouches and the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakkers. And I say, “More power to ’em, frankly.”
Believe it or not, the average Chinese, out of all the ones I’ve met a) knows what kind of government they have and has no illusions (wish I could say the same for red-state folks!), and b) despte that knowledge they don’t feel “enslaved.”
But they do know that the USA is scared of the rise of China as a modern power, and frankly they don’t like that, regardless of how ham-fisted their government is.
Comment by mumon on February 16, 2005 at 11:12 am
Some more comments…
again I sense a resentment towards expertise. Look, do a web search on “Jeffrey A. Schaler,” “Stanton Peele,” etc. I don’t know if you’re aware, but he position , that the ““self” is that “natural” self is naturally harmful to oneself” is identical to the position of “learned helplessness” that is thought to be the reason why 12 Step groups have such abysmal success rates in handling addictions. Yeah, you heard me: abysmal. The idea that these faith based groups actually do any good is a myth.
(But it is a fact that the longer you participate in those groups the more psychological problem indicators you tend to get as determined by an MMP test.)
Look, I’ve gotten an inkling of your background from perusing your website, and I don’t want you to be too disturbed at what I say, I know it’s heresy to you.
But trust me, many people have been where you are, done what you did, and after a while, they’ve grown beyond where you are now. I know what I’m writing probably sounds like I’m from another planet to you, but, well, you’ll find out…
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 17, 2005 at 12:18 am
Wait. So, a story of two ancient Christians is related to some story which you do not provide… how? What is it about giving unnamed sources? You give no link, no inkling about this pair you’re comparing the martyrs to. Why?
From the link you provided:
The governor is asking her to worship Caesar, perform a sacrifice for Caesar. This is expressly forbidden in Christian doctrine – not to mention Old Testament docrines – which say that sacrificingto , or worshipping ANYone, or ANYthing other than Jehovah/Yahweh is totally, absolutely off limits. So, in essence, you’re saying that she should have totally compomised an absolute tenet of her faith, so she could live? Impossible. Absolutely impossible.
As for Felicitus:
It is NOT about “voluntary martyrdom”. It is about principles worth dying for. Yes, they voluntarily chose not to sacrifice to Caesar. However – this is expressly forbidden by God. So, they were abiding by His commands, and their own moral principles, as Christians, by refusing to sacrifice to Caesar.
Martyrdom is never “the end goal”. It must be all about God – and not about themselves, or “getting to heaven faster”.
I did read what the “expert” for this piece said, in other places. She is not exactly a mainline scholar. Perhaps not even Christian at all.
The writers of this critique of her go on to say…
First, to get the background info, read the top essay on the same page, by William Meeks. It shows why these people were martyred, and the background information in the Roman Empire.
I can understand you may be wading a bit into deep waters, by commenting on Church history at all, on a Christian site – but let me give you some advice, if I may. Using PBS as a source on Biblical/Church historical scholarship really, really doesn’t fly. First, PBS is well, well known for using mostly doctrinally liberal theologians for their main points in their series, as a rule – while throwing in a couple of more moderate or conservative ones to give “the other side”. If you got the impression that this was a “voluntary suicide pact” – there is likely a reason for that. Probably because that was the gist of the program – a “discussion” about whether Jesus of th Bible was true or not. Am I right? Reading the prison diaries, and the background information on the reason for the persecutions (while relying on just the internal evidence for the show itself – I can look more if you like) it’s perfectly clear why they chose martyrdom. It was a choice between sacrificing to Caesar, or for Caesar to another god – which is something a Christian cannot do – ever. When faced with denying their beliefs, or death – a Christian would rather die than deny their Lord. That’s the way things work with followers of Jesus. We DO consider Truth to be utterly above the “value” of our own lives. Because His value is so far above ours. What He values – we value.
What are you referring to, again? You never said. Just because you read it, it does not necessarily follow that
1) It was correct.
2) The people writing it knew what they were talking about.
3) You understood it correctly.
If you provide a link, I can do the legwork, and “see if these things are so”.
You still have neglected to tell me anything about why that just popped out of left field, or why you mentioned it as if someone quoted it here. What are you talking about?
Nor are those who try to make it seem like it’s a “political struggle”. I have, however, talked to those who have – and what they say is that there is a laughably inane system of “freedom” in religion. Communist states have such a good record of religious toleration. Excuse me while I laugh.
Do you have any, oh… evidence for this? Anything from the Chinese government? Any quotes? Excerpts from speeches? Anything? It’s all very nice that you have stated this – but I’d like a bit more verification than “trust me…”
Care to respond to this? (Second posting)
Still waiting.
Relevance, counselor? What does “not liking that” and “the USA is scared of the rise of China” logically connect, if you don’t mind me asking? Oh, and remember – don’t stray into politics too far. Socio-political, as relating to the topic, is cool. Red herrings with no relevance to the topic at hand will be removed.
Thanks!
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
Comment by RazorsKiss on February 17, 2005 at 12:59 am
Uh, yeah. “people with advanced psychology degrees agree”. That’s nice. They also say the whole world has a group consciousness, and all sorts of other twaddle. Care to make some specific, relevant claims, instead of an Anonymous Authority?
No, you sense a resentment against unnamed, uncited, unmentioned, and unverifiable expertise. There is a vast, vast, vast gulf between “a bunch of smart guys said this”, and “Dr. So and So, of Such and Such university, stated in such and such paper that he belied in such and such – here’s a link”.
This is what annoys me about people who say “a bunch of smart people say…” No reference to which smart people, in what context, how it supports your point, or in any way relates to anything – except that you said smart people agree with you. Well, I could say “smart people agree with me, too – so you’re wrong.” So what? Information source, cross-reference, relationship to the topic… something!
😛
It’s not my job to do your reference work. if you want to cite someone as agreeing with you – please have the common courtesy to at least quote, if you can’t link. It’s just bad form to say “look it up on google”, like everyone should visit the same sites or know the same people you do. It’s not polite to do that. Please provide references, or at least a quote, accompanied by a name, with your first assertion of an authority’s agreement with your position.
Ok, I’m glad he thinks that. So? What do you have to say which aligns with this assertion (by an authority you have only given a name for, have not quoted)which you have said nothing about yourself, as yet?
Source? Compare, while you’re at it, since you placed it in an implied comparative sense, other types of programs, and let us know their succes rates. Since you brought it up. I’m not doing your legwork here, either.
Source? Saying something does not make it so.
NASA brat? Electronics technician? Ex-military? Aspiring Biblical scholar? What exactly are you ever-so-obliquely referring to?
I’m really confused about what you’re alluding to. Seriously.
Nah. I wouldn’t be an apologist if I got offended too easily. Here’s a tip though – if you are going to debate – please debate with something – don’t just spout “general authority” at me, and expect me to give much for it. I’m a stickler for verifiable quotes, citations, authorities, and such. Especially when you use the word “fact”, or anything absolute statement.
Wow – I’m capable of “growth”? That’s more than some condescension has granted me the capacity for 😀 Seriously, though, mumon – I don’t think you have any clue how condescending the above looks.
1) The inherent assumption that my belief system is one that needs to be “grown out of”. It’s not heresy – it’s blanket condescension. If you are going to speak to me – speak to me as an equal, not as an inferior. You only sound arrogant, overbearing and condescending if you fail to do so.
2) You are talking to someone whose purpose, on this blog, is to defend the very beliefs you are deigning to condescend to. Not only is it ludicrous to expect me not to laugh at the sheer arroganceof that faux pas – It’s foolhardy to expect to be taken seriously if you come on my website I pay for – and talk down to me as if I’m just “going through a phase”. You do realize, of course, that the very reason for the existence of this blog is to defend the Christian faith? That an attitude of “you’ll grow out of it” is so impossibly out of place here, that it only makes you look foolish? This is not Joe’s blog. This is an active, confrontational apologist’s blog. You will be challenged, you will be criticized, and you had better come up with something to defend or advance a position – any position – or you will be in violation of the rules of this blog, found at the beginning of the comment section. I’ll quote the relevant section for you though.
No, you don’t – you sound like a typicl proponent of the “sophisticate”, college graduate, agnostic (or non-theist, whichever you prefer), humanistically-oriented, worldview inculcated by the media, the college faculties, and the general culture paradigm found in most socially liberal areas of the US. I’m from Arizona – I spent 6 years in Cali. You sound just like my Aunt, who teaches physics in Cali now. Or my uncle, who teaches history at the U. of Missouri. Both are socially liberal, religiously agnostic, well educated, and condescending. No, it’s not unfamiliar at all. Don’t stereotype people who live in the South. We aren’t all backwoods unsophisticates. I have a NASA chief engineer for a father, and a musician mother. 5 of my 7 uncles have master’s or higher degrees, and a couple have multiple degrees. My Aunt has a bachelors in physics, and a bachelors in lib. arts.
My pastor is a former heart surgeon. My administrative pastor is a degreed, retired Air Force IT administrator. I’m the oldest of 6 kids – but no, I don’t have a degree.
I’m going into school for web design, and then to seminary after that though, probably. That enough background?
I don’t have a thing about “education”. I just don’t happen to be impressed by it. I can write just fine, thank you very much. I’m sure you’ll grow out of this need to prove your superiority, though. I know a lot of people who have. I know a lot of people who haven’t, though, too. They tend to be people you don’t like to talk to very often – because they always feel like they have to prove how smart they are – and how much you need to learn to be their equal.
I’d prefer if you proceeded to prove your “advancement” by being thorough, concise, and having some semblance of an argument, myself.
But hey – I won’t expect much. You’re “just” a atheist. You’ll grow out of it, I’m sure. (/sarcasm)
Comment by sibert on May 3, 2005 at 9:23 pm
I know this post is way at the bottom, so if God is the only one who knows it to be posted, so be it. Anyway, sometimes I have spent a great deal of time and research formulating a response to an atheist or someone with whom I disagree on an important point(such as assurance of salvation) only to realize as I’m about to post that my intentions are not right. I’ve become caught up in being right. In pride and vanity. When the New Man in me prevails, I delete the post. I do this on the principle that we will only be as effective as we are holy. When my Natural Man prevails, I post with the thought, “God can use anything to speak, even my ramblings”. Then I reread the post, thinking about how educated and logical I sound.