17 comments

1. 

   Comment by Rand on July 16, 2005 at 8:57 pm

   “I know Rand does, but we’re not talking about him…”

   Actually, you are… LOL.

   Funny, for a guy who cares nothing for my positions, you sure mention me alot. (Just an observation)

2. 

   Comment by Sal on July 16, 2005 at 9:46 pm

   I’ve been on both sides of the fence on this one. So, I’ll throw in my thoughts.

   1) There are a lot of things in Catholicism that can distract believers from the message of the cross, so it’s much easier for Catholics to not have a true devotion to Jesus. But, those who do understand that Jesus is the message, I believe they are saved (they just don’t know it. It was typical as a believer to not know where you’re going until death.) And remember, there are people in every denomination that are not saved. It’s preposterous to judge an entire church, when God knows hearts.

   2) Catholics don’t think they are Christians. They are Catholics, which is above and beyond Christians. For years Catholics were taught that Protestants wouldn’t go to heaven. Then came Vatican II and that went out the window. But how do you believe it one day and then not the next? It was still be taught in Catholic schools in the 1970s and 1980s, although not directly, but more by omission. Today, I’m not sure. I think there is wider acceptance of Protestants among believers, but still a separation between the Catholic church and other Churches. For instance, pastors in our community do a fellowship group, but the Catholic priests never come or are not invited…not sure what is applicable.

3. 

   Comment by RazorsKiss on July 17, 2005 at 2:57 am

   Funny, for a guy who cares nothing for my positions, you sure mention me alot.

   I do care, Rand. Enough to have you in the “miscuts” section on my blogroll.

   But that’s about it.

4. 

   Comment by Eno on July 17, 2005 at 9:36 am

   I think Sal’s first point is excellent. Parts of the doctrine can really distract from the message of the cross. Raising some individuals to sainthood and positions of worship because they were “really good” in life? C’mon guys.
   I recently read C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity” and I believe the introduction answers the question quite well. If a RC believes Christ died for their sins, accepts the Apostles creed and truly lets Christ intotheir life as savior, who are we to claim they are condemned because of some strange procedures. Can’t we agree that it is the belief in Christ and the profound act of accepting him that is the mark of a Christian?
   Here in the hills of West Virginia there are numerous small and often unaffiliated churches. I’ve heard preachers on our local radio station claim that only baptists are in line for salvation, I’ve heard that only certain kinds of Baptists are really Baptists, and the rest are on the path to hell, I’ve heard that those who worship Sunday as opposed to Saturday are condemned.
   I think we should be careful before saying salvation is denied to anyone. I have my own faith and salvation to worry about before pointing fingers

5. 

   Comment by Suzi on July 17, 2005 at 4:55 pm

   I grew up in and now attend a denomination which flat out believes and argues that Catholics are not Christian. Of course, thirty years ago they believed that anyone not in their denomination was going to Hell. So the RCC wasn’t any different than my denomination in the 70s and 80s, before Vatican II as Sal points out.

   Just as most everyone agrees we don’t perfectly follow God’s desires, I believe that none of us perfectly understand them. So I don’t think that a misunderstanding or even a misapplication keeps you from being a Christian.

   I do think that you have to believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Which means that many people who call themselves Christians are not. That does not, however, include the Catholics as far as their teaching goes.

   About Euro’s comment on saints and worshipping them… I will agree that many Catholics seem to have this understanding. And I do not believe that any canonization process determines sainthood. Paul called the believers saints.

   If all Christians are saints, then just because they are dead wouldn’t mean they stopped being saints. And Paul said we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, I believe this is referring to those who are dead. If so, why wouldn’t asking them to ask God to help you be okay? (Saint X, pray for us.)

   I agree that we don’t generally use “pray” anymore as a verb meaning request, but we did in the past. (I pray you’ll forgive me.) And since we all know that the churches are the slowest to change, couldn’t this just be saying, “Hey, guys, yall who are already up there but remember this problem or this situation, talk to God about it too, please.” I ask my friends here on earth to pray for me. Why not the ones that have gone on?

6. 

   Comment by Marla on July 17, 2005 at 6:36 pm

   I think it’s the hypercalvinists (perhaps there are also borderline hypercalvinists) that teach that Catholics aren’t saved. I know there are non-calvinists who also rail against Catholics, i.e. Dave Hunt, who I think wrote a book with James White, but where they were on opposite sides of Calvinism (?). The Christian Counterculture (Discerning Books) was selling it prior to Rob’s emergent turn (maybe they still are). Too tired to Google my facts, so feel free to correct me as I am cutting and pasting from worn out brain cells.

   I agree with Sal about there being people who are saved and unsaved in every denomination, but the question is when does it become a cult? I know there are Christians who believe that some Mormoms (and I would guess JWs) are saved. My litmus test has always been the classic acknowledgement of the trinity and the Godhood of Jesus for starters, and Catholics line up with that. I don’t know how much of it is a heart thing and how much is a mind thing, but it’s definitely a soul thing.

   Btw, on the other post (re: kid pics) where you commented on my blog, I wrote back and raised some other issues, so I hope you’ll check back.

7. 

   Comment by Eno on July 18, 2005 at 7:08 am

   Good points everyone. My sainthood example, Suzi, was merely a way to answer Razorkiss’s question about “denying salvation”. I think the actual worship of persons (living or deceased) is a violation of the first commandment. I’m with you, however, in hoping that some of my friends and family are speaking for me on my behalf with God!
   It seems we are all pretty much in agreement that holding some basic belief in Jesus as savior would mean that practices of religion would not “deny salvation”, am I right?

8. 

   Comment by Elena on July 18, 2005 at 11:47 am

   Just a Catholic passing through. (Nice blog by the way!)

   Catholics do not worship saints, or Mary. We worship God.

   “There are a lot of things in Catholicism that can distract believers from the message of the cross, so it’s much easier for Catholics to not have a true devotion to Jesus. But, those who do understand that Jesus is the message,”

   How about a little challenge – I’m sure that if anyone cared to name one of of the “things” that distract Catholics from the “message of the cross” I’d be happy to illustrate how it not only is not a distraction, but instead points us to Jesus. 🙂

9. 

   Comment by Elena on July 18, 2005 at 12:14 pm

   From the Official Catechism of the Catholic Church:

   “Outside the Church there is no salvation”

   846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

   Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

   847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

   Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

   848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338

10. Trackback by Northern 'burbs blog on July 18, 2005 at 7:48 pm

    Trippin’ ‘Round the ‘Sphere – 7/18 Edition

    …But really, there is a great deal of good material out there lately, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t point it out. So fasten the reading glasses, and let’s take a trip…

11. 

    Comment by Funky Dung on July 19, 2005 at 10:50 am

    “Catholics don’t think they are Christians. They are Catholics, which is above and beyond Christians. For years Catholics were taught that Protestants wouldn’t go to heaven. Then came Vatican II and that went out the window”

    Hogwash. Catholics don’t believe they are above and beyond Christianity. We believe Protestantism is deficient (though not necessarily insufficient) Christianity. There’s a big difference. Also, the belief that non-Catholic Christians are damned was not official teaching. However, it had become part of popular piety (or in this case, self-righteousness). Vatican II, like any other council, did not introduce any new teachings. It only clarified those which had been misunderstood or misrepresented.

12. 

    Comment by Funky Dung on July 19, 2005 at 11:30 am

    Here’s a story that is somewhat related to your post.

13. 

    Comment by ~Hopes on July 19, 2005 at 12:42 pm

    “Catholics don’t think they are Christians. They are Catholics, which is above and beyond Christians. For years Catholics were taught that Protestants wouldn’t go to heaven. Then came Vatican II and that went out the window”

    “Hogwash. Catholics don’t believe they are above and beyond Christianity.”

    Actually, I think that every religion has these types of people within their congregations. I had been Catholic for a majority of my life and converted (yes I said it) too Christianity.

    There are those Catholics *cough* like my parents who think that only Catholics will be the only ones delivered during the rapture. Was this actually taught to them? Who knows, but boy, are they wrong. I have met some Christians who think they are better than Catholics and that they will be the ones delivered.

    Whereas, if you actually have the definition of the word Christian.

    1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
    2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
    3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
    4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
    5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

    We are all Christians.

    Just my .02

14. 

    Comment by Elena on July 20, 2005 at 8:51 am

    “There are not over a 100 people in the U.S. that hate the Catholic Church, there are millions however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.” — Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

15. 

    Comment by cwv warrior on July 20, 2005 at 2:24 pm

    The local Christian radio talk show host was fired over this very thing. Salvation is through faith, period. I have never excluded Catholics from being my brothers and sisters in Christ! I do think they could relieve themselves of undo stress if they would let go of the works thing. Aren’t works the natural result of faith? Yes, we will be judged by our works but salvation does not depend on works at all. If RC’s believe it does, don’t they have a tension in their relationship with their Father? I would hope our Righteous Judge will not hold this against anyone in the end.

16. 

    Comment by Funky Dung on July 24, 2005 at 12:40 am

    Are you referring to Marty Minto?

17. 

    Comment by WeekendFisher on July 24, 2005 at 9:40 pm

    Hi there

    I’m a latecomer to the conversation.

    Myself, I really liked what Jesus did with the parable of the “good Samaritan”. He was seriously pushing the buttons of the “right religion” folks of his day with the idea that a Samaritan might be better than them. Samaritans had (have) an altered Bible and certain systematically-distorted beliefs. But that particular Samaritan “got it” about God’s love and compassion in a way that the others didn’t.

    Take care & God bless
    WF

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