(Cranmer): i asked you to explain
(Cranmer): i then challenged an assertion you made
(Cranmer): you asked me to explain
(Cranmer): i was trying to explain
(Cranmer): but you simply didn’t want to listen to what I had to say
(Manuel): no dice David I want a debate
(Cranmer): it was a debate
(Cranmer): just not a shouting match
(Manuel): no it was not it was you asking questions
(Cranmer): yes, it was
(Manuel): LOL!
(Cranmer): i get to do that when I’m laying out an argument
(Cranmer): and you are free to do it when you lay out yours
(Manuel): LOL!
(Algo): <@Cranmer> when I am done, I will return it to you
(Algo): dishonesty is the mark of a cult
(Manuel): Who wants to debate?
(Manuel): yes it is!
(Cranmer): right
(Cranmer): and so Jesus, the Living ONe, the YAHWEH of Isa 41, says “I was dead”
(Cranmer): there is your problem in a nutshell
(Cranmer): and no claiming rudeness will remove it for you
(Manuel): No dice you are being dishonest david
(Cranmer): Jesus is the YAHWEH of ISa 41, by his own words, and he says “I was dead”
(Cranmer): where’s the dishonesty?
(Cranmer): that’s quite a claim, so I think you would be better backing it up
(Algo): Cranmer, you are being dishonest because he doesn’t want the truth.
(Cranmer): Manuel, where’s the dishonesty?
(Cranmer): I know the ops don’t like people making such heavy unfounded accusations
(Cranmer): Manuel, where’s the dishonesty?
(Manuel): jeuss is both David’s son and davids lord Right?
(Cranmer): yes, yes he is
(Manuel): Both human and divein he which dies and does not die
(Manuel): So yes you are being dishonest
(RazorsKiss): Yes, posesses the natures of God, from eternity, and humanity, from the Incarnation.
(Cranmer): no, since in Rev 1:19 he claims divinity AND says “I died”
(RazorsKiss): and continues with both natures, for Eternity.
(Manuel): You are mixxing him i9nto a hybrid
(Cranmer): thus the divine one dies
(Cranmer): you are presupposing that the divine cannot die
(Manuel): hybrid is your veiw’
(@brigand): I think even the nature of “death” is being debated.
(Reformerz): Are you UPC or are you Apostolic, Manuel?
(Manuel): hybrid
(Cranmer): nope, it’s really simple
(Manuel): apostolic
(RazorsKiss): Could a mortal man bear the wrath of God, Manuel?
(Cranmer): Manuel presupposes that the Divine cannot die
(Cranmer): and Jesus contradicts him
(Manuel): No Your Jesu is a Hybrid
(Cranmer): he claims to the divine yahweh of Isa 41
(Cranmer): and then claims to have died
(Cranmer): so your disagreement is not with me Manuel
(Manuel): jesus is both davids son and davids Lord
(Cranmer): it is with Jesus’ words in Rev 1:19
(RazorsKiss): Could a mortal man take the penalty of death for us all?
(Manuel): yes
(Cranmer): razor, leave him
(Cranmer): leave him to disagree with Jesus
(Cranmer): Manuel disagrees with Jesus.
(Manuel): A Mortal man without sin
* Cranmer thinks that is a terrible position to be in
(RazorsKiss): Or must He be BOTH man and God – man to share in our suffering, and our temptations – and God to bear the wrath of the Father for the sins of

the world?
(Manuel): There is one mediator between god and men THE MAN CHRIST JESUS
* Cranmer goes off to make a ham/cheese toasted sandwich
(Algo): manuel thinks Jesus is a hybrid?
(Cranmer): two fillings, one sandwich – hypostatic union in the one bread
(Manuel): NoI think your veiw of Jeus is a Hybrid
(@brigand): RazorsKiss: Even Job says he needs a mediator who is both God and man.
(RazorsKiss): I think your view of Jesus cannot save.
(Algo): Did you come up with that term?
(RazorsKiss): Only man cannot bear the wrath of God.
* Cranmer is bored with Manuel because he won’t listen to Jesus’ words in Rev 1:19
(RazorsKiss): Only God does not suffer as we do, and is not tempted as we were tempted.
(RazorsKiss): The God-Man can fulfill both.
(RazorsKiss): Did, and will for eternity.
(Manuel): There is One mediator between god and men the man christ jeus
(RazorsKiss): Yes, there is.
(RazorsKiss): Interceding before the Father.
(RazorsKiss): Why does He have the right to intercede before the throne?
(Manuel): No his slain humanity
(Manuel): is ever seen
(RazorsKiss): He is the Son of God – the only begotten of the Father.
(RazorsKiss): So, Manuel.
(Manuel): The sojn of god refers to his humanity not divinity
(RazorsKiss): If, in the beginning was the Word.
(@brigand): How can one mediate between both God and man without being both divine and human?
* Algo shuts up.
(RazorsKiss): And the Word was WITH God – and the Word WAS God – and He was in the beginning with God…
(RazorsKiss): How can we not be taling about 2 different persons – being called God?
(Manuel): Psalm 33:6 by the word of the LORD were the heavens amde and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth . the day you make the breath of your

mouth another person is the day you will have anarguemtn from john 1;1
(RazorsKiss): Why wouldn’t God be one in purpose?
(RazorsKiss): All 3 persons?
(RazorsKiss): How could God NOT be one in purpose, in all 3 persons?
(Manuel): no such thing as three persons of god
(Manuel): you actually have four with your veiw of jesu
(RazorsKiss): John 1 – The Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.
(Manuel): yesssss
(Algo): Sabin is no debater<---but you are? (RazorsKiss): Two persons, being called God. (Manuel): 1st. john 1:1-2 (RazorsKiss): Why is this, Manuel? (Manuel): eternal life was with god from the beggining (RazorsKiss): Eternal life was "God"? (Manuel): 1st. john 1:1-2 (Manuel): yes (Manuel): Yes! (RazorsKiss): So you have two Gods? (RazorsKiss): God - and Eternal Life? (Manuel): No! You do (RazorsKiss): No, I have 3 persons in one God. (Manuel): eternal life is not a person (RazorsKiss): You apparently have two Gods. (RazorsKiss): So it's an impoersonal God? (Manuel): God is Spirit john 4:24 (RazorsKiss): So God is not a person? (RazorsKiss): You said earlier that a spirit cannot be a person. (Manuel): A spirit is not a person (RazorsKiss): God is Spirit. So God is not a person? (RazorsKiss): Curious. (Manuel): Yep (RazorsKiss): So, now you have TWO impersonal Gods. (Manuel): otherwise your jesus is two persons (Manuel): No (RazorsKiss): The God, whom the Word was with - and God - who is spirit, and cannot be a person. (RazorsKiss): Do I have you correctly? (RazorsKiss): Because that is where your argument has taken you. (Manuel): The word is simply that the word Psalm 33;6 (RazorsKiss): 1. You say that God is Spirit. (Manuel): yep (RazorsKiss): 2. You say that a spirit cannot be a person. (Manuel): yep (RazorsKiss): 3. You say that God cannot be a person. (Manuel): he is only a person in the person of the son (RazorsKiss): 4. God is, therefore, what? An inanimate spiritual object? (Manuel): God is spirit (RazorsKiss): A non-personal God gave Christ his Godhood? (RazorsKiss): How would a non-personal God have any interaction with a person? (Manuel): God is a person 1 person in the person of the son (@brigand): Seems like Manuel defines "person" has having flesh and blood. (Manuel): no (Cranmer): 😉 (RazorsKiss): That "person" was only a human being, given his godhood by "god", this impersonal force - according to you. (RazorsKiss): So, we now have *3* Gods, Manuel. (RazorsKiss): One is a person, one is an impersonal force called "The Word" (RazorsKiss): and one is "Jesus" - who WAS a man, but was then "made to be" God, by the impersonal force known as "God", elsewhere. (RazorsKiss): Is this what you're trying to tell us? *** Manuel (~gjzcjzbhd@Cobra-IP1.ViperShells.com) Quit (Manuel:IRC) (RazorsKiss): Rofl. (graceb4me): bummer (@brigand): lol (@brigand): nice RK. (doulos): what? he quit? (RazorsKiss): He's a trinitarian! (RazorsKiss): You all saw that... (RazorsKiss): The Oneness pentacostal just argued himself into being a trinitarian. (RazorsKiss): *sigh* (doulos): God equals spirit, which equals impersonal force which creates Jesus?... * RazorsKiss finds a place to post that one (RazorsKiss): 1. God is spirit, and cannot be a person (doulos): that was insane. (RazorsKiss): 2. So, the "God" in Scripture is an impersonal God (doulos): doesn't understand what a person means.. (RazorsKiss): 3. "The Word" is also impersonal, and also God- and separate from "God" * doulos to Manuel.. person... you keep on using that word..... * doulos I don't that word means what you think it means *** MikeAtHome (~chatzilla@cpe-024-163-081-139.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error to MikeAtHome[cpe-024-163-081-139.nc.res.rr.com: Connection reset by peer) (RazorsKiss): 4. Jesus, who is also God - IS personal - but was not always God, but made to BE God (RazorsKiss): by an impersonal "God" * Cranmer returns with his ham cheese and chilli sandwich - trinitarian and cultic * Cranmer also sips his ethiopian harar doppio (RazorsKiss): I think I just KO'd him. (RazorsKiss): Or.. really his own argument did. (crewbear): ham cheese and chili is trinitarian? (doulos): yeah.. no doubt * Cranmer understands that everyone else is jealous (RazorsKiss): Because that was the funny part. It was what HE said that smoked him. (RazorsKiss): all i did was assemble it. (Cranmer): that too *** Manuel (~gjzcjzbhd@Cobra-IP1.ViperShells.com) has joined #prosapologian (doulos): You assemble three into one Razor? (RazorsKiss): Cranmer- did you see Manuel admit to being trinitarian? (Manuel): LOL no you seen no such thing (RazorsKiss): Sure I did. (Cranmer): you're kidding me, that would be good (Manuel): Sorry (Cranmer): oh, he's back (Cranmer): good to have you back, manueal (Cranmer): manuel (Manuel): nom I would belong to a cult then (Cranmer): how you doing with the Divine Jesus claiming to die in Rev 1:19? (RazorsKiss): 1. God is not a person, but impersonal, correct? Because, according to you, a spirit cannot be a person, and God is Spirit. (Cranmer): I am the First and the Last ... I died (Manuel): That is your veiw not mine (Cranmer): no, it's jesus' view (Cranmer): he says (and correct me if I'm wrong here) "I am the First and the Last ... I died" (RazorsKiss): 2. The Word is also God, but also impersonal - and separate from "God" in John 1. (Manuel): The first and last can say that david Because he was not onloy the first divine but the last glorified humnaity that died (Cranmer): manuel is currently dancing for us (RazorsKiss): That's 2 Gods so far, Manuel. (Cranmer): lol (Manuel): for you razor (Cranmer): so "first and Last" is actually a statement about humanity? (Cranmer): ~nas isa 41:4 (@Gutenberg^): 12Isaiah 41:4 "Who has performed and accomplished [it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'" (NASB) (Manuel): i have One god and one glorified man (RazorsKiss): Then, Jesus is also God, because He was granted his Godhood by the Father - but He is personal - granted His Godhood by the impersonal "God". (RazorsKiss): No, you admitted the "Word" is a God, but not a person. (Cranmer): sorry Razor, I'm interrupting (Cranmer): go ahead (RazorsKiss): And was "with" God, the impersonal Father. (Manuel): We cannot debate here razor you need to come to my group this is confusion compounded (Manuel): Okay lets use your reasoning razor shall we? (RazorsKiss): No, you are confusion multiplied (RazorsKiss): No, let's not. (RazorsKiss): Let's stick to your trinitarian admission. (RazorsKiss): God is, by your admission: (Manuel): yes let's do and i will show you how you have four persons instead of three (RazorsKiss): 1. The impersonal Father (RazorsKiss): 2. The impersonal Word (aka Eternal Life, as you defined it) (Manuel): Okay God the father is a person (Manuel): lets use your reason razor (Cranmer): hello! now he's a person! (RazorsKiss): No, you said God is spirit, and spirits cannot be persons. (Manuel): reasoning (@brigand): !!! (RazorsKiss): Be consistent. (Manuel): Come on now (Manuel): you be consistent? (Manuel): God the father is a persons * Cranmer finishes his sandwich and sits back (RazorsKiss): I'ev been consistently pointing out that you're skipping around like a bug on a hot skillet, yes. (RazorsKiss): Yes, that's my claim - but not yours. (Manuel): come on mr brave let's dance? (Cranmer): a bug on a hot skillet - i like that (RazorsKiss): I'm not interested in my argument. I know it already. (Manuel): No you don't ! * Cranmer dances to Rev 1:19 (RazorsKiss): I'm interested in where you're getting you're trinitarian impression. (RazorsKiss): *your (Cranmer): nice, now Manuel knows our arguments better than us! (RazorsKiss): Because you have outlined 3 Gods for us. (Manuel): your veiw of god is either hybrid or you have four persons (Manuel): I was trinitarain (Cranmer): not at all (Cranmer): you still don't get it (geoffist): you "WERE" trinitarian? not anymore? (Manuel): I lefvt it for the truth' (RazorsKiss): You're also Trinitarian - but with no Biblical basis for it. (Cranmer): i am beginnig to suspect that it's because you don't want to (RazorsKiss): It's a bit confusing. (RazorsKiss): Why can a spirit not be a person again? (Manuel): Come on Razor * Cranmer notes that the first and best way to debate is to properly understand your opponent and address their best argument (RazorsKiss): Please outline that from Scripture for me. (Manuel): come on God the father is a person * Algo can't remember who the Hybrid was. (Cranmer): we're all heretics geoff, keep up 😉 (RazorsKiss): You're revoking your statement that a spirit cannot be a person, then? (@brigand): Cranmer: The best way to debate is to use your words but define them differently, then make random claims (Cranmer): lol (Cranmer): mate (Cranmer): you need the forward slash!!! (RazorsKiss): Manuel: You're revoking your statement that a spirit cannot be a person, then? (Manuel): I don't believe a spirit is a person it is weak and contradictory when explain ing god (Cranmer): try it out, jamie (Cranmer): lol (RazorsKiss): So, "God is Spirit" - thus, God is not a person. (Manuel): Come on let us use your reasoning (Cranmer): oh, I'm not seeing it (Cranmer): my bad (RazorsKiss): ~nas John 4:24 (@Gutenberg^): 12John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (NASB) (Manuel): Yep (Manuel): Yep (RazorsKiss): So, God is not a person, by your statement. (RazorsKiss): So, Christ is not a person, when He says "into your hands I commit my Spirit", either? (Manuel): Stop with your beating around the bush (RazorsKiss): So, Christ is not a person, when He says "into your hands I commit my Spirit", either? (Manuel): That is a human spirit part of a person body soul and spirit jeus was glorified humanity a person (RazorsKiss): The Father is not a person, as Jesus says "God is Spirit" (RazorsKiss): Spirit cannot be a person. You didn't say "God's spirit". (Manuel): razor let us use your reasoning? (RazorsKiss): So, are also denying men have spirits? (Cranmer): i'm bored (Cranmer): someone boot him (RazorsKiss): Why? Yours is much more enlightening. (Cranmer): he simply doesn't want to listen (Manuel): No men have spirits it is part of humanity persons (RazorsKiss): So, are men persons? (Manuel): 'Yes men are persons (Manuel): so was jesus (RazorsKiss): Then spirit can be persons, can't it? (RazorsKiss): God is spirit, is He not? (RazorsKiss): Per John 4:24? (Manuel): why are you asking me ? (Manuel): I thought you knew (RazorsKiss): Because you're the one playing footsie with the truth. (Manuel): Your doctrine is not the truth (RazorsKiss): Is God Spirit, or do you deny the Biblical doctrine? (Manuel): God is Spirit (Manuel): Yes (RazorsKiss): Why then, cannot God be a person? (RazorsKiss): Jesus is. The Father is.. a Father. (Manuel): What? (Apollos): apparently a spirit cannot have personality in CG's world (RazorsKiss): Fathers are typically persons. This describes a relationship. (RazorsKiss): Relationships are only had by persons. (RazorsKiss): You cannot have a relationship involving only one person. (Manuel): of course god can have personality to deal with us on our level but he is above that (RazorsKiss): Is God a person? (RazorsKiss): The Father - is He a person? (@brigand): God is above having a personality? (Algo): with=face to face (Manuel): NO only in the person of the sonm is god a person (RazorsKiss): So who was Jesus talking to, when praying in the Garden? (Manuel): Yes he did (Manuel): he Prayed to his god as a real human man (RazorsKiss): Who was speaking when the Father said "this is my son, in whom I am well-pleased"? (Manuel): The father Duh (RazorsKiss): A person, or an impersonal force? (RazorsKiss): Do impersonal forces have sons? (Manuel): Goid as spirit the allpowerfull all knowing ultimate being