Evidence that Evidentialism Fails
Posted by RazorsKissJun 29
All one needs to do to demonstrate the title of this post is true is to examine the Caner Scandal. Ergun Caner’s defenders have consistently refused to examine the evidence of Ergun Caner’s multiplicitous prevarications – and instead have attacked those criticizing Dr. Caner. See, evidentialism is all about presenting “brute facts”, “objectively” from a putatively “neutral” standpoint. There are many problems with this. First, no one is neutral. Second, there are no brute facts. Third, there is no objectivity from any position save that of a worldview based soundly in Christian theology.
Here’s where evidentialism goes off the rails. They assume that man can reason properly, absent God’s regenerative grace. Based on that, they assume that given “facts”, in this universal reasoning ability, you can come to the correct conclusion if the case is reasoned well. Third, they “cut down” the whole of Christian theology, and argue from “bare theism”.
Let’s take the first. Scripture most definitely denies this assertion. Romans 1 tells us that men “suppress the truth in unrighteousness”, they “become futile in their speculations” and thus God gives them over – to lusts, to passions, and to a depraved mind. Proverbs repeatedly tells us that the fear of the Lord is the *beginning* of wisdom. Tell me – if you don’t even have the beginning, how can you have any at all? I could go on, but this is going to be short, so I’ll stop there.
Second, no fact is examined apart from your own already-formed conceptions. Until and unless those conceptions, or presuppositions, are addressed, you will go nowhere. Everything a man examines is filtered through the matrix of their presuppositions. There are no “brute” facts, which merely need to be seen to reach the proper conclusion.
Third, the assumption that there is an “objective” viewpoint for unbelievers to look at facts from is absurd. Did not Christ say “I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life?” That means there is, definitionally, no other! Does not Paul say, in Colossians, that ALL treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ Jesus? This means that all other purported wisdom, purported knowledge, is foolish – it is only “falsely called wisdom”. (1 Ti 6:20)
So, back to our example. When presented with video, audio, legal documents, examples from his own writings – what is the response of Caner’s defenders? I’ve seen a few types of response.
1) Ignore it
2) Spin it
3) Attack the messenger
Now, does this look to you like all you have to do is present the evidence, and they will see the light? If someone doesn’t *want to believe the evidence* – they won’t – and only an act of God will change that desire. After all – isn’t that we’re always saying? Only those drawn by the Father will come. Only those given ears to hear, will hear.
Tim Rogers is claiming that Caner was “exonerated”. Do people who are exonerated get fired as President of a seminary? Peter Lumpkins is claiming that “Ergun Caner did not make up his life testimony.” Tim Guthrie claims that “He is NOT a liar.” Excuse me? On what possible grounds can any of these statements be made? Oh, that’s right – on presuppositional grounds. Faulty presuppositional grounds. If none of the evidence presented, save that which can be refuted (and has also been refuted by Caner’s *Christian* critics, save for one undiscerning soul), is considered valid *a priori*, or has been examined at all, it’s easy to say that. It’s just as easy to say a red light is green – if you’re colorblind.
So, as I said – this situation points out quite clearly what the issue is. It’s NOT evidence. it’s *presuppositions*.
To close with a couple quotes from Dr. Robert Price, a skeptic Dr. White recently debated:
Dr. Price: “if you had your video camera, you’d have picked it up – but nobody did… I don’t know what on earth could prove that Moses divided the Red Sea, save a trip in a time machine… it’s a question of theology, not a historical judgement” – from that recent debate.
Dr. White: (selected) “this issue this evening is not just the skepticism that says we don’t know… if we are not for God having spoken, we are where Dr. Price is this evening…. so, there could not be any evidence from antiquity that could convince you?”
Dr. Price: “no, I can’t see how, given the nature of documents from antiquity”
Dr. White: “Does it not follow that there cannot be anything short of multiply attested recordings of an event to prove it?”
Dr. Price: “”I’m afraid that’d be so.”
Our intrepid defenders, note – are even MORE skeptical than Dr. Price. Even video cannot prove whether something happened, to these folks. I rest my case.
6 comments
Comment by Squirrel on June 29, 2010 at 11:25 pm
RazorsKiss,
Excellent! Spot on! Bingo, & all that! We cannot see what we refuse to even look at.
Squirrel
Comment by Bennett Willis on July 2, 2010 at 1:46 pm
“Here’s where evidentialism goes off the rails. They assume that man can reason properly, absent God’s regenerative grace. Based on that, they assume that given “facts”, in this universal reasoning ability, you can come to the correct conclusion if the case is reasoned well.”
But we have seen numerous people, who we think are blessed with “God’s regenerative grace,” who are reasoning badly. Now, I have a problem… 🙂
Comment by RazorsKiss on July 3, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Only if: 1) You assume sanctification is not immediately tied to regeneration 2) You ignore that I was speaking of an *unregenerate* man, not a *regenerate* 3) It’s not understood that regeneration and sanctification are intrinsically linked to one another – and that sanctification is progressive. 4) You don’t care to admit that far too many reason concerning all sorts of things in accordance with the world, and not in accordance with Scripture – including you, and including me 🙂
Comment by Bennett Willis on July 3, 2010 at 7:26 pm
I agree that I generally reason in a secular manner. And I refuse to fetch some convenient verse (often taken out of context) to justify my conclusions. However, I hope (and trust) that my reasoning is “contaminated” by my years of belief in both scripture and Christianity and that I do it close to- “right.”
One of the best secular statements I ever heard on how to interact with people came from the PBS program “Engines of our Ingenuity.” John Lienhard said that you should listen carefully and then take the most benign interpretation of speach and actions that you could. Then you should make the most positive response that you can based on that interpretation. This approach generally keeps me out of trouble on comment threads. 🙂
Comment by RazorsKiss on July 3, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Well, I’ve talked about in greater detail elsewhere – but the sure way to be “renewed by the transforming of your mind” is to work in a conscious, disciplined fashion to endeavor to be “firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” Earlier in this passage (Col 2), Paul reminds us that “all treasures of wisdom and knowledge” are hidden in Christ – and he says that he tells us this that no one may delude us with persuasive argument. Only if we present our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice to the Lord may we prove what the will of God is – that which is good, acceptable, and perfect!
As Bahnsen says, even the facts concerning the War of 1812, or the chemical composition of water are NOT neutral facts – or “brute” facts – they are God’s facts, as He ordains all things, and in Him all things hold together. So, if we keep this in mind in all situations, we are “right” – missing that mark is where we get in trouble – and I do so far too often, despite commenting and writing about the subject *quite* frequently.
(Just as a side note, I was using the generic “you” in all but the last “you” of my previous comment.)
Comment by Bennett Willis on July 4, 2010 at 7:43 pm
If you were wondering what nice thing I said about Peter, I added approximately this to his current comment thread:
“”I am a Persian Turkish immigrant raised as a Sunni Muslim, and in the interest of full disclosure, I must state that I left Islam in 1982, the same year I became an American citizen.”
http://www.crosswalk.com/1274146/
Since this is a direct quote from EC, it qualifies as a primary source.
http://truelife.org/home/professors?id=11 states that Ergun gained citizenship in 1984.
TrueLife would be a secondary source but you know that they try hard to put up the information they are given.
This is the quote from NG’s defense. 3) Ergun said they moved to America in 1969 and in another place he said it was 1978. More precisely, he got his citizenship in 1978.
Since you have been so successful at sorting out EC’s testimony and NG’s defense, would you please have a go at these three.”
Maybe he will have more success than I did.