Atheist Hermeneutics
Posted by RazorsKissMar 22
The first instance of atheist hermeneutics can be found to follow.
As anyone who has picked their Bible up recently can tell you, this doesn’t even resemble Numbers 35. In fact, Numbers 35 instantly recalls “cities of refuge” (Num 35:6) to the Biblically literate. Since this is a stock phrase to this day, it’s always stuck in my mind – as I’m sure it has in many of yours. Secondly – the “verse” quoted is so antithetical to Biblical doctrine, as taught elsewhere, that it is amazingly obvious that our forger has no sort of accurate conception of what is taught in the Old Testament. Since this is so, it would follow that they also have no accurate conception of what is taught in the new – as Christ, in His own words, came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17) This has significance, also, in the trial of Christ, where it is mentioned that a man cannot be put to death without more than one witness. This also is found in Numbers 35 (vs 30). These are two common referents for this chapter.
I introduce it this way due to a common theme we often see in atheistic writing. “Reading the Bible cover to cover is the surest path to atheism” – or some derivative phraseology. In my experience, the “reading” done by atheists is most often cursory, acontextual, arbitrary, and guilty of more wooden literalism than any fundamentalist I could name. Further, these readings are guilty, in every case I have ever examined, of “eisegesis.” Eisegesis is the importation of your own views, ideas, or the like to the text, and reading in your *own* context, instead of the context the text presents to you. The correct way to consider the Scriptures is via “exegesis” – the “drawing out” of the meaning of the text – by use of the languages, context, background, references given in the text itself, or those made to it.
In the case shown above, there is no exegesis whatsoever – as there is no text to exegete. There is simply gross insertion, utterly foreign to the text itself. In fact, there is simply no other reference to this supposed text to be found, anywhere, save in the blog post, since deleted with a “noted and corrected, Thanks!” This is the worst conceivable form of eisegesis imaginable, due to the fact that it simply inserts their own text AND context, wholesale.
The successor to that (thankfully) abortive attempt to “educate” us on what the Bible “really” says is better only in that at least it attempts to deal with an actual text of Scripture. As we will note, it fares only marginally better as an attempt at exegesis. The (new, replaced) link is below.
Now, he insists (on twitter) he got it from some blogger, and just didn’t check his source. However, as you can do for yourself, do a search on the “verse” he provided – entire, by phrase, any way you like. I just wanted to see if he’d admit it… but here’s the source I found for what he posted, apart from the initial hit on his site.
Okay – so… not only is this a source that *specifically says* it’s a “create your own” bible verse – but the post in which it is promoted seems to think that those “religious people” will fall for it. So, either we have something posted on facebook, found by someone purporting to tell us “what the Bible says,” and… the atheist “falls for it” – or we have an atheist trying to “pull a fast one,” trying to defend his poor attempt – or we have the originator of Alex’s verse. However… if you read Mr. Burgoyne’s tweets, he is trying to give the impression that he *thought* this was a real verse. From the *comments* of a post that says “Create your own Bible verse?” Without even reading the passage? Interesting view regarding accuracy.
The Bible REALLY says that – Part 1
Jason Burgoyne offers us the following passage (cited in the NAB – a Romanist translation, but linked to the TNIV, a liberal “Protestant” version)
Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you (David) out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’ Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.”
His attempt to object here is extremely short, but we’ll examine it nonetheless.
So the punishment for David killing a man and taking his wife? To have his innocent wives raped, and to kill his innocent child.
Notice – there is not even an attempt to deal with Psalm 51 and David’s confession and cry to the Lord. There is no attempt to substantiate the accusation of “rape” – no identification of who it was that was doing this “raping”, nor is there any attempt to go to where this is fulfilled. In the first case, David attests that it is against God, primarily, that he has sinned. Nathan tells David, in this same passage, why it is that David’s punishment is to be what it is. He has given the enemies of the Lord occasion to blaspheme. Note, also, that there is no attempt to deal with the hope David expresses later on in this chapter, concerning his son, nor is there any attempt to deal with Bathsheba’s next son – a boy named Solomon. The nature and character of God, as is sadly common with atheists, is not addressed at all, save in a highly cursory fashion. His foundation – the position from which these objections are made – is likewise not offered, or argued for. it is merely assumed.
How is this a moral story, and how is any book that contains it supposed to be informative of our (or our children’s) morality?
How is his objection moral? How is any objection, or any putative contrary position supposed to be informative of our, or our children’s morality? For instance – how does a purposeless, meaningless bag of protoplasm, supposedly evolved from “lower” (so-called) life, supposedly meaningful, in any non-arbitrary way, in the first place? On what grounds does he assume there is any semblance of universality of experience which concepts like “morality” can be considered intelligible? What, in his worldview, makes this “morality” he is appealing to in what appears to be a non-subjective fashion, even an intelligible concept in any sense whatsoever? The incredible nature of this lack of self-reflection evidenced by atheist objectors never ceases to amaze me. Not because I don’t expect it, but because it’s so heavily addressed by the pages of Scripture, and they so accurately depict it.
Unbelievers so often throw out words like “moral” or “morality” as if they were some sort of invariant universal. On what grounds do they do so? I offered to debate Mr. Burgoyne on the subject of morality previously, and have not received a reply as of yet. I’ve yet to see a coherent answer for why he seems to object on “moral” grounds, when it seems to me that his worldview offers no consistent basis for a non-arbitrary, non-subjective conception of “morality” in the first place.
It was clearly a book written by iron age sheep herders based on their own skewed “morality”.
Clearly, Mr. Burgoyne’s post was written by an individualistic North American whose “moral” opinions are skewed by temporal prejudice, a notion of class superiority, and ultimately based on his utterly subjective, completely arbitrary conception of his own notions as universally applicable.
Clearly.
Now, let’s be frank. Do the sort of assertions he has offered hold any sort of persuasive appeal, let alone stand up to any rigorous logical objection? Do they come from his own worldview? Are his objections even intelligible, given his atheism? I don’t see how they could be. As easily as they can be turned around on him, they can be dismissed.
He first offered a wholesale forgery, then followed that up with a four sentence “indictment”, borrowed whole cloth from a worldview which actually *possesses* an objective moral code – in order to *object* to that same moral code. I find such lackadaisical treatment of the subject to be par for the course, sadly. Here is what we want, my unbelieving friends. We would like an objection which even attempts to move beyond the superficial, shows even the slightest grasp of context, Biblical theology, or the text itself. We would LOVE for you to actually engage even the barest *fraction* of the mountains of literature surrounding each and every verse of Scripture, or show even the slightest interest in reading it as you’d like to be read yourself. In short, we would love to interact with an intelligent, knowledgeable objector. It is incredibly tiring to deal with the same tired, endlessly dealt-with objections that show not the slightest inkling of interest in fairness, and fairly reek of ignorance. Please, if all you care to do is congratulate yourself on your brilliance, while showing not the slightest knowledge of the field you are claiming knowledge in – do yourself a favor – at least do the cursory study in the field in which you are “educating” us in.
“Not to know the King James Bible is to be, in some small way, barbarian.” – Richard Dawkins
18 comments
Comment by J on March 22, 2011 at 5:37 am
It was only meant to be a short look into the atrocities in the book that is meant to inform our morality (In the eyes of Christians).
It is pretty clear who the rapists would be (the neighbors who would lie with the wives in public) and the immorality of striking down a CHILD with sickness is evident and needs no further examination. The verse following clearly states that GOD strick him with illness and that he dies 7 days later.
YOu attempt to defend this immoral and terrible verse with a mocking look at how short it is, but no amount of explanation can undo the evil of killing a child who is innocent for the crime of another.
Second, I have thanked you for pointing out my error in not checking my source for the original post, but you continue to delight in your childish victory after I apologized and posted a retraction. The point remained the same, and your defense of the actions that I referenced was weak and immoral. The fact that you choose to defend the murder of a child as “not heavily examined enough” is terrible and an insight into your own morality. The fact that you can hear, “a child was murdered” and you need to hear the whys and how comes before you can determine if it was a moral act is very telling of you.
Your interest is not accuracy sir, it is in trolling. I attempted MANY times to engage you in conversation on this, and you choose instead not to reference my questions on twitter but to attempt further attacks on me here.
Infantile at best.
I see now that your goal was NOT to attempt to keep the posts accurate and to ensure that sources are cited, but to attack anyone with any ammunition that you can get because your faith was insulted.
Sad and infantile.
I gave the bible fairness for 30 years, now I simply can’t excuse its evils any longer.
I am sad that you can see morality in the death of a child and the rape of women, and see only immorality in the mistaken posting of an erroneous verse.
The fact that you find your offense in that, and not in the terrible acts depicted in the bible that I revealed, is telling of the indoctrination and dogmatic view that keeps you from the ability to think critically about such things.
This is my last post with you, as you have revealed yourself to be too dogmatic to converse, and too proud of yourself to accept thanks when given.
Peace
Comment by brigand on March 22, 2011 at 8:48 am
The world is full of illiterate atheist barbarians. What else is new?
“Hey, let’s make stuff up and blog/retweet it” isn’t new, either. There already exists a nice atheist mythos of circular internet references that unthinking atheists unwittingly take as gospel truth from their fellows. Stak is evidently unaware that it’s the /atheists/ who too often believe in their own contrivances.
Isn’t the mantra of A/E “think” and “examine”?? D’OH! Selective thinking wins!
Comment by brigand on March 22, 2011 at 11:02 am
Given the context of your first fictional quote, I’m assuming you’re interpreting rape as a prescription for offenses given? The “neighbors” in question weren’t your friendly next-door types, they would have been the enemies of David, Israel, and God. Like, Absalom, for instance. See chapter 16. It’s not hard to see that the Bible never takes the position that rape is a moral good.
Secondly, the only murder in view was the original murder of Bathsheba’s husband. Unless it is also assumed that every illness resulting in death is also a charge of murder. Is that the case?
Sin has consequences. Tragic consequences. Consequences that aren’t isolated. Consequences that bring about more sin, and more misery. A drunk driving accident involving a child fatality is a tragic result of sin, but only the atheist reasons from the incident that God is immoral, or that somehow Christians ought to think there was a moral good here.
I don’t know what the author thinks a retraction is, but it generally involves changing the original intent. Since the author is still seeking (and failing to be honest about) rape by divine command, I find the “retraction” disingenuous. “Correction” is probably more suitable, since he removed the original and replaced it with something that is actually attributable somewhere.
That the author thinks the Bible is a guidebook for morality, or that all Christian morality is simply divine commands, is very odd, and if he got that from his time in Sunday School as a child, he had a poor teacher.
Comment by Alex Hardman on March 22, 2011 at 1:11 pm
As the author of the first quoted “verse”, this is hilarious. I’m very interested in the simple fact that what I wrote could even be considered valid, as asinine as it is on its very face. That’s how terrible a book the bible is…
Comment by RazorsKiss on March 22, 2011 at 5:21 pm
Sure wasn’t me who considered it valid. Thought #1 – “Which atheist site did they get this gem from.” When google found only one result – the blog referred to in this post – second thought was “Who did he think he was fooling?” Thought #3, when I found it buried in a comment that night… “hahahaha.”
Numbers 35, as I said in the post, is fairly well-known. Your citation of that chapter is therefore problematic. Secondly, “verily” is typically a NT translational term – only used a couple times in the Pentateuch, mostly in the Psalms, as far as the OT goes. Dead giveaway of a fake. Most importantly, though… anyone who thinks rape is atonement for sin has no idea what the Bible says, in any way, shape, or form. The most obvious, and most hilarious giveaway of all. In fact, it was so bad that the only one you caught was another atheist. Go figure.
Comment by Alex Hardman on March 22, 2011 at 7:05 pm
Actually I fooled several believers I know, they just didn’t bother to comment. I’ll come up with a better one next time. The point wasn’t that this specific thing was in the bible, just that the amount of horrible things in the bible is so large that some other random horrible thing would have fit right in.
Something like:
And thus, having seen her unclothed, he shalt go in unto her and take her as his wife, though she be willing or not.
Random verse 14:58
Rape is tolerated, if not downright encouraged in the bible, is it not?
Comment by Alex Hardman on March 22, 2011 at 7:23 pm
Rape is fine in the bible (at least if you’ve got a bit of cash):
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Or if you just finished pillaging and what not (women as plunder or spoils of war is pretty common).
(Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.
And to forestall this one, if you kill the menfolk, and take the women as “wives”, I’m not sure what else that could amount to besides rape…
Comment by brigand on March 23, 2011 at 10:35 am
How did you know you fooled believers if they didn’t bother to comment? I have it on good authority (by his own admission on twitter) that the first to fall (hard) for it was an atheist.
I’m not sure how you interpret a passage delineating sanctions for crimes constitutes tolerance and encouragement. Unless of course you ignore the previous 7 verses which also outline consent. In other words, it was wrong to begin with, but since nobody was previously engaged/married in the circumstance and violating covenants, it’s not a capital offense. Would you rather it be a capital crime?
It’s even more unusual to hear criticism from an atheist that attempts to view it in “tolerant” light, considering the popular view of casual sex.
You used “wives” with quotes. I’m assuming you think that such marriages were unlawful, for any act of intercourse to be considered rape, but OT marriages are generally viewed as parity covenants (both parties agree). If you think marrying widows is wrong, so be it, but every time I watch The Last Samurai, I will think of you.
Comment by Alex Hardman on March 23, 2011 at 1:45 pm
I used “wives” with quotes, because I’m not sure I could believe that it was common practice to marry the invaders who just killed all your menfolk, and if you did so, I’m pretty certain it wouldn’t be willingly. Coerced rape is still rape.
As to the other, yes I would rather it be a capital offence. It’s worth killing someone who works on the sabbath, but not a rapist… Yep, no reason to think they condoned rape or anything…
I knew I convinced people through this magical communication medium called talking to people, you know in that mystical place called reality.
Comment by brigand on March 23, 2011 at 4:06 pm
תפש– The root word (here, in perfect form, of /taphas/) translated as “rape” in some versions, actually just means to “take” or “lay hold of”. You take your army to war, you take a guitar (and play it), etc. The point being this is evidently premarital sex with mutual consent (*they* were “discovered”) (also known as casual sex), and the penalty for not being able to control your urges with your girlfriend is to support her financially (still known as a shotgun wedding, even though there’s no shotgun involved). I’m not sure why the NIV translates it that way, but neither the NLT, KJV, NKJV, ESV, NASB, etc do. But I do like how you forced a reading by quoting from the odd man out (even though that was mis-cited as the NLT, which only renders “intercourse”). NIV never claimed to be spectacular in the accuracy department, just fewer big words. Context is still important when reading.
So, here we have an instance of casual sex (“pre-marital intercourse”).
The Bible proscribes a penalty for that.
You call that penalty “encouragement”.
You further suggest that it be a capital offense.
Ergo, the Bible condones the act of casual sex, and you don’t.
Do I have your permission to source your statements to other atheists who might also condone casual sex?
Comment by Alex Hardman on March 23, 2011 at 7:39 pm
No, I’m gonna go with the version I find when I search for the passage, and I find plenty that call it rape. You can quibble all you want, but it sounds more like you need to believe that your book doesn’t condone rape than anything else.
All the versions I found gave me an indication of force. I found several that gave the situation as “lay hold” or “take” not being used in a consensual manner, and thus it’s justified in being translated as rape. Also, you’d need to take this entire argument up with the translators, not with me (the person reading the translation).
To sum this all up, your problem is with the translators of the bible, not with me. I’m just the messenger. Perhaps you should start some sort of campaign to fix the bible. If it wasn’t so horrible a book it might not have so many people calling it that.
Comment by RazorsKiss on March 23, 2011 at 8:51 pm
Okay, so… two paraphrases render it that way (and incidentally, the argument has already been made with the translators – if you check the current edition of the NLT, it reads as brigand says) – none of the literal translations render it that way – because it’s wrong.
Also, just a note – You might want to check the context of your Judges 5 citation. That is speaking of *Sisera’s* army – you know, the guy who got a tent spike through his head? The invading, pagan general? Hardly a vote of confidence from the Lord, when it’s speaking of the pagan royal family comforting each other with how the invaders are probably bringing home the women from Israel – and the conclusion is…”Thus” (as Sisera did) “let all your enemies perish, O Lord”.
Atheist hermeneutics – all you’re doing is proving my point.
Comment by brigand on March 23, 2011 at 9:00 pm
Why would I start a campaign to fix the Bible? There’s nothing wrong with the Hebrew here, which I provided, with discussion of root, tense, broad semantic domain (which has nothing to do with rape), general usage (which in no other instance has anything to do with rape), and immediate contexts (which speak to consentual vs. non-consentual relations). The only two instances I found were “paraphrastic” translations (by admission of the translation committees). NLT already did change that between editions — 2006 no longer has it. All other instances of “rape” in chapter 22 used a different Hebrew word. Why? Either they were rummaging through their Hebrew thesaurus to make it more poetic, or else they probably weren’t intending the understanding that it was rape.
If someone, somewhere translated it thusly, it must be justified absolutely, no question? Eh, I don’t accept everything I’m told at face value. I leave that to the atheists who re-tweet your fictions as gospel truth.
Comment by RazorsKiss on March 23, 2011 at 9:07 pm
Also, just in case anyone was wondering – the next post is a response to the initial comment.
Comment by brigand on March 24, 2011 at 12:25 am
Side note, the Talmudic commentary on this verse (Kethuboth) assumes cohabitation. Those rabbis were weird, but thorough.
How to pick up chicks in the Bible, according to the new atheist interpretation, as never before understood by anyone else in history:
Seducers and playboys were never mentioned in the Bible. It’s all about the rape. Sure, it got you killed sometimes, but it also got you married! If you’re a single guy, find yourself an unmarried lady and enter her house. Rape her in the living room where the parents can witness. Pay the man. Leave happily married!
That an atheist thinks you can get away with that sort of thing in the Bible doesn’t reflect on the Bible so much as his own troubled mind. The reasoning center of his brain simply failed to fire off warning signals that something wasn’t quite right in his understanding here, because his conclusion doesn’t make a lick of sense. This is why this post is titled “Atheist Hermeneutics” — though it’s really atheism participating in the Special Olympics of Bible Interpretation. Thanks for playing. Here’s your ribbon.
Comment by Alex Hardman on March 24, 2011 at 5:24 am
So, let me get this straight.
I read several widely used variants of the bible, and several explanations of the translations used therein, which define the action taken in this context as rape. I find the thought of someone being forced to marry her rapist, and him only being punished by having to pay what amounts to a fine, to be extremely disgusting. But, it must be because I’m an atheist and thus cannot possibly interpret the bible correctly?
No, I’m gonna go with the simpler explanation, I’m an atheist precisely because things such as this exist. Now I actually understand why it’s called apologetics. Thanks for the ribbon. I’ll take it and go home where people don’t have to do so much digging to understand their world view and where it doesn’t need so much explanation and interpretation.
p.s. Eh, I don’t accept everything I’m told at face value. Nope, you definitely don’t. I totally believe you when you say this.
Comment by RazorsKiss on March 24, 2011 at 7:04 am
Who on earth did you read? As we said, only *paraphrases* translate it this way. Paraphrases are notorious for readability at the *expense* of accuracy. We’ve given you the original language breakdown, the Talmudic breakdown (which is the Jewish commentaries on the OT), shown you that *none* of the literal translations say what you want it to say, and given you a full, detailed, thorough exegetical case. Your response is to handwave this, and stick to a handwave of all of these issues, and stick to “several” (don’t you mean two, one of which has been changed for accuracy since the version you cited) translations, all paraphrases, which translate this verse contrary to the original language, the Talmud, the Septuagint, and every modern and non-modern literal translation.
What is “simple” about ignoring the vast, vast majority of translators, the original language, the Jewish commentary, the first and oldest translation (the Greek Septuagint), and stixking to your story on the dubious “authority” of whoever it is you’re claiming explains it as such. Which commentaries? I’m calling this out, because I did the diligence on this text, and so did brigand. Provide the translations which give it this way, since you apparently have “several”, yet only cited 2, one of which no longer uses it. Second, cite those who “explain” this text, that you used as sources. I studied several different commentaries, lexicons, and other language tools – old and new; brigand referred you to the Talmud and the original language. We ran it past a couple Hebrew readers in our chat channel – who, incidentally, said that there was no justification whatsoever for translating it “rape” – which is why the NIV is alone there. We gave you a half-dozen English translations – all literal, save the updated NLT that brigand noted – that do *not* translate it as such. Who are you referring to, when you say that you read “several explanations”?
The text simply doesn’t say that, and the single major translation, a paraphrase, which cites it as such, is simply wrong. There are simply no other major translations which translate it as such. The NLT used to, but it no longer does. It is also a paraphrase.
As we’ve explained, this is actually speaking of the law concerning consentual premarital intercourse. It details that instead of a dowry being provided by the father to the groom, the groom has to, instead, provide a bridegeld to the bride’s father, due to his actions. The bride, due to her consent to premarital intercourse, is to marry her sexual partner, and remain married to him. We’ve actually presented an argument. You haven’t. We’ve done the diligence in studying the text. You haven’t. If you’re willing to present an argument, instead of asserting your position on the basis of a single paraphrase, and uncited “explanations”, we’d be happy to address that. As it stands, you are simply arguing on your own authority, and the dubious authority of a single paraphrase, over and against a singularly weighty amount of translations that disagree with you.
While you might consider yourself informed, I’ve yet to be impressed by your level of knowledgability. Please correct that impression by offering an argument for your position, or you have, essentially, refuted yourself. We aren’t the ones making a novel and lightly substantiated claim. You are. We don’t “have” to do all this digging at all, as we’re taking the position of all but a handful of sources, and the one with the historical, scholarly weight to it. We’ve done the digging in order to show the impossibility of the position you have taken, in light of the mountain of textual data available, which you haven’t availed yourself of.
So, in closing – offer an argument. Any argument. Offer a citation, any citation. Do something other than make an assertion on your own authority, on the grounds of a single paraphrase. Thanks.
Comment by brigand on March 24, 2011 at 9:10 am
Adultery => Both parties die.
Rape => One party dies.
Premarital sex => Nobody dies.
Sounds simple to me.
Your version of the details contradicts the previous statements on rape, and contradicts the handling of actual cases of similar incidents in the Bible, which either is not a simple solution, or your simplicity is simply subjectivity asserting itself objectively. Perhaps you can find an example of such an incident in the Bible for me?
I don’t think you are interpreting the Bible correctly because you refuse shift your brain out of neutral when it comes to the Bible — not sure if that’s a *particular* blind spot due to your atheism, or it’s a general problem. And your statements about going home where you don’t have to think deeply only further indicate that “atheist thought” is an oxymoron.