5 comments

1. 

   Comment by Treymiar on August 3, 2005 at 9:59 pm

   A helpful illustration is to compare and contrast the prohibitions against adultery & prostitution with Jesus’ mercy upon the woman caught in adultery… also his mercy on the woman of ill repute who wept at his feet. How does he bestow forgiveness and restoration upon these women and yet issue declarations about fornicators not entering the kingdom of heaven? Both his mercy and his judgement must be (and are) true.

   It is better to address the wider question, “How can a loving God condemn Anyone to hell?” The question implies mankind’s perception/assumption that judgement and love are mutually exclusive… they aren’t. As an illustration, earthly parents (good ones, at least), feel pain and sadness when they must punish/discipline their children. They don’t like it and would much rather not need to do so.

   Now, let’s get to reconciling Jesus’ forgiveness “today you will be with me in paradise” with Jesus being the ultimate, final judge “get the hence… I never knew you”. The key is in identifying what Sin is. Sin is an attack on life, truth, and love. It is harmful. It is deadly. That’s why our very loving God forbids it. It has nothing to do with God being some sort of tyrannical cosmic killjoy. Jesus offers All of us sinners, we adulterers, thieves, murderers, etc. complete forgiveness, restoration, healing, and a very hearty welcome into his paradise. Anyone and everyone who wants this forgiveness… it’s theirs. But there are those, many in fact, who spit with contempt upon that forgiveness. They Embrace their defiance and rebellion against life, love, and truth. God, Jesus, can only answer this ultimate attack with the justice that honor demands.

   ** To not judge true evil is to, in some way, become part of it.

   How can a loving God condemn anyone to hell? A loving God who offers free and full deliverance from hell can be such a judge. A God who pleads with desperate love to his children to accept forgiveness, this God can and must be a judge, or else all that he is would be a lie.

   The original author struggles with a devil’s portrait of God… as a being who capriciously values rules above precious souls. Nothing is further from the truth.

   ** God gave us rules, the unattainable perfect law, as a mirror. This mirror of rules/laws was his gift to show us men the evil to which we have fallen. Rules weren’t given to make our lives miserable, boring, or chained. They were given to show us the terrible (fatal) wound to our nature which must be healed.

2. 

   Comment by mr rabid atheist on April 1, 2006 at 8:34 am

   So, while eating seafood was an abomination, along with homosexuality, in the OT, only one carried over to the NT. Why is morality relative within Christianity?

3. 

   Comment by RazorsKiss on April 1, 2006 at 9:04 am

   First, seafood eating is a dietary law. Those, incidentally, no longer apply to New Testament believers, per Paul.

   for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

   ~ Romans 14:7

   Second, you don’t read very well, at all. Your question, if you’d bothered to actually read the post, was directly addressed.

   It is NOT some “greater” sort of sin – it’s just like every OTHER sin – equally abominable in the sight of God. Every single little sin, regardless of what we classify as “good”, as “bad”, or “greater”, or “lesser” is equally sin. No differentiation.

   Then again, though – Idon’t eat seafood. I despise it. I’m from Arizona, and think that eating things which were swimming in the water is just… gross? I hate fish, period.

   So, just for you… ok, maybe not…

   But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake;

   Here’s a promise – I’ll never eat seafood again. Not because i can’t – I can. But, because it offends you. In this case, I’m totally serious. It’s easy for me, too. It’s not important, and it’s not an essential doctrinal issue. It never was homosexuality that was the issue. It was the world that made it a big issue – and expected us to accept that they think homosexuality is right. It doesn’t matter.

   Just as food for thought, watch where homosexuality falls in this list from Paul though. It’s eye-opening.

   Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

   But, here’s the important part.

   Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

   That’s the part that matters. Such were some of you. Us, Christians. The point is that sin what should be left behind, upon conversion. If it’s present, habitually, and if the person in question doesn’t change after their supposed conversion? No matter how long they’ve called themselves Christian, they aren’t.

   That’s the bottom line, spunky. Do all atheistic (or, I should say, anti-theistic – you’re much too much of an activist to be honestly called an atheist – you’re actively anti-theistic, sorry!) folks do this knee-jerk whenever they see the word homosexual, or is it just every one I’ve met?

4. 

   Comment by Franklin Mason on April 5, 2006 at 11:09 am

   Treymiar,

   You seem not to admit that there is a third class of people, a class distinct both from those who accept Christ and those who know him but reject him. There are those who do not know him through no fault of their own. Does God condemn them to eternal damnation? That seems grossly unjust.

   You say that parents, though they must sometimes punish their children, wish that they did not have to cause them pain. This is true. But it cannot serve as a justification for eternal torment. No parent, at least no good parent, would inflict such a punishment upon their child. Moreover, we punish to teach our children; apart from that, punishment is simply cruelty and thus is unjustifiable. But what can possibly be taught by eternal torment? Once it begins, it never ends.

   Moreover, it seems simply arbitrary to choose the moment of death and make a person’s moral state then determinative of their fate. For if I had lived a bit longer, I might have made a change and so saved my soul. Would not a just God give us every chance to change?

   It is a valiant attempt to defend the dogma of eternal damnation for non-believers, but is it ultimately unsuccessful.

5. 

   Comment by RazorsKiss on April 5, 2006 at 5:12 pm

   Treymiar,

   You seem not to admit that there is a third class of people, a class distinct both from those who accept Christ and those who know him but reject him.

   Actually, there is not. The rejection exists, whether it is by defiance or their omission.

   There are those who do not know him through no fault of their own.

   The fault is that they have not looked, or not looked far enough. That is, indeed, their fault. As Paul says, in Romans 1:

   For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

   There is no such thing as “not my fault”, when talking about knowing God.

   Does God condemn them to eternal damnation? That seems grossly unjust.

   Proverbs says:

   There is a way {which seems} right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

   Seems? What in the world do you know of justice?

   God tells Job this:

   Now gird up your loins like a man; I will ask you, and you instruct Me. “Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?

   God is Just, and this is what God has declared. Those who do not believe Jesus, and follow Him as Lord, will not be saved. What your opinion of it is will always be irrelevant – as is mine.

   You say that parents, though they must sometimes punish their children, wish that they did not have to cause them pain. This is true. But it cannot serve as a justification for eternal torment. No parent, at least no good parent, would inflict such a punishment upon their child. Moreover, we punish to teach our children; apart from that, punishment is simply cruelty and thus is unjustifiable. But what can possibly be taught by eternal torment? Once it begins, it never ends.

   I’d have to agree that this wasn’t the best choice of illustration. In this instance, God is the Judge, not the Father. A judge does not “go easy on” people brought into him for committing a crime. In this case, the crimes in questions are sins – period. Any, all, and for the length of their lifetimes – any and all sins they’ve ever committed. This is what the punishment is for.

   Moreover, it seems simply arbitrary to choose the moment of death and make a person’s moral state then determinative of their fate.

   Thanks for your input. However, you’ll have to tell God that, one day. I would suggest the route of repentance, submission to Christ’s Lordship, and humble study, prayer, and devotion to Christ as the only viable alternative.

   The alternative, as we’ve already seen, isn’t very satisfying.

   For if I had lived a bit longer, I might have made a change and so saved my soul. Would not a just God give us every chance to change?

   For the length of your mortal life, yes. Death limits the sin you can commit to your lifetime. At the end of your lifetime, you’ll have to face the Judge of all the earth, and give an account for your actions. Are your sins covered by the blood of Christ, or not? That’s the most important question you’ll ever have to answer.

   It is a valiant attempt to defend the dogma of eternal damnation for non-believers, but is it ultimately unsuccessful.

   He doesn’t have to defend it to you. You have to defend yourself to God, one day. The priorities I’m seeing are out of whack, and I encourage, and even beg you to re-evaluate them.

   Even anti-Christians can be saved – if they repent.

   Just ask Paul.

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