Archive for the ‘ Christianity ’ Category

Consider.

I’m breaking my politics fast, to make a very short comment.

When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him?

If you are a Christian, and in the doldrums about the results of this election; Consider.

Consider the kindler of the stars you can see above you. Consider the Creator, whose words brought into existence those incandescent thermonuclear dots of light spread across the heavens like a panoply of minuscule brilliance. Consider the transcendence of the Almighty, whose words brought all things into their appointed places, whose very will set all things – past, present, and future – into motion, all of which obey His will, to the slightest detail. Consider your Savior, the God-Man Christ Jesus, without which nothing was made that was made. Consider all of this – and then consider the relative importance of what we all know to be the judgment of Almighty God on this nation, in this election. It is only a passing phantom. An event ordained, yes – but still ordained within His sovereign decree. One of billions every day.

Be still, and know that He is God. We are the light of the world, brethren. The light is more easily seen in contrast with darkness, and your purpose on this earth is to be that light. Your God is great, and greatly to be praised. Thus, fear no evil. He is with you. He will greatly bless you – and He will use this for good, for those who love God, and are called according to His purpose. He always does, does He not? Thus, while you may mourn, mourn on the march. We have work to do, and we must be about it.

Return to futility

* dios_mio (fake@88.241.140.113) has joined #apologetics
[dios_mio] hi guyz
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, you should have been here yesterday.. i devastated your apologist friendz 🙂
[@RazorsKiss] since when?
[@RazorsKiss] what’re you up to.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, i debated your frienz here and i kicked them buttz 🙂
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: considering you think you win every debate, that’s not very hard 😛
[@RazorsKiss] I was having high hopes for you, a while back.
[@RazorsKiss] Go back and read bertrand russell a dozen times until you felt better? 😛
[dios_mio] you have no respect for Bertrand Russell?
[@RazorsKiss] not especially.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, your friend here yesterday tried to pull the presuppositionalist trick on me
[dios_mio] he wants to prove christianity true without ever having to argue for it lol
[dios_mio] thats having your cake and eating it too
[dios_mio] another friend of yours in here tried to negate the entire science of geology lol
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: how many epistemologies did Russell hold to?
[dios_mio] hmm no idea
[dios_mio] wasn’t he a sort of empiricist?
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: I’m really not interested in tattle-taling. This isn’t undernet 😀
[dios_mio] right
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: which 5-year period?
[dios_mio] I dont know
[@RazorsKiss] Hegelian, Platonic, atomism, extreme realism, logical constructionism, neutral monism, materialism.
[@RazorsKiss] That’s the “consistency” of russell.
[dios_mio] it is called maturing up
[@RazorsKiss] No, it’s called ping-pong 😀
[dios_mio] you are not being fair with him
[dios_mio] he contributed a lot to philosophy
[@RazorsKiss] reading through Russell’s stuff is such a mish-mash that although he was a bright guy – it’s hard to see why or how it matters, if he can’t give a coherent picture.
[dios_mio] well of course today he is mostly obsolete
[dios_mio] like many other philosophers before him
[dios_mio] philosophy keeps progressing
[@RazorsKiss] that’s the thing – he just kept bouncing until he got tired of it.
[dios_mio] nothing wrong with changing your mind with a new insight or evidence
[@RazorsKiss] further, he doesn’t believe in certainty, regardless.
[dios_mio] Heidegger and Wittgenstein are also known for changing their minds
[@RazorsKiss] So it’s really not relevant what he thought.
[dios_mio] well it is only relevant historically… he contributed then and made his impact in the history of philosopher
[dios_mio] philosophy
[@RazorsKiss] Because he just doesn’t know – like the rest of the philosophies based on subjective perception.
[@RazorsKiss] We went through that before – remember that?
[dios_mio] no I don’t
[dios_mio] first time I talk of Russell with you
[@RazorsKiss] no – about how subjective secularism is.
[dios_mio] oh?
[dios_mio] well
[@RazorsKiss] you can’t trust anything, because your feet are planted in midair/
[dios_mio] I don’t know if secularism is subjective, but the fact remains that we have no other reasonable option
[dios_mio] christianity is just an ancient tale, and cult of judaism
[dios_mio] judaism, christianity, islam, hinduism…
[dios_mio] a 21st century enlightened person cannot take them seriously anymore
[@Raz_Laptop] there you go again.
[@Raz_Laptop] what makes a 21st century person any smarter than someone in the 12th century?
[@Raz_Laptop] intelligence depends on ability, not on data.
[@Raz_Laptop] further – you used the term “reasonable” – on what basis do you trust “reason”?
[@Raz_Laptop] additionally, you’re trying to make an issue of whether they can be taken “seriously”
[@Raz_Laptop] please inform – on what basis is “serious” an argument of any sort?
[@Raz_Laptop] aren’t you making a value judgment? How can you judge the value of anything, with no objective standard from which to do so?
[dios_mio] well what then?
[dios_mio] what is the conclusion of this line of thinking?
[@Raz_Laptop] that you require an objective standard to know anything at all with warrant for it’s truthfulness.
[@Raz_Laptop] “truth” is meaningless without something to establish it by.
[dios_mio] why do you think we have no objective standard?
[dios_mio] well reality is what establishes truth
[@Raz_Laptop] I do – you don’t – not from within your worldview.
[dios_mio] my worldview doesn’t deny the existence of reality
[@Raz_Laptop] how do you know whether your perception is in accordance with it?
[@Raz_Laptop] that’s the definition of truth – perception and thinking of said perception in accordance with reality.
[dios_mio] because it works
[@Raz_Laptop] how do you know?
[dios_mio] I get by
[dios_mio] well I achieve my ends
[@Raz_Laptop] so what?
[dios_mio] mundane daily life ends, I achieve them, my perception must be working
[@Raz_Laptop] that has nothing to do with whether it’s true.
[dios_mio] if it wasn’t working I couldn’t get by
[dios_mio] what should I doubt about my perception?
[@Raz_Laptop] whether you’re having it.
[dios_mio] it seems to work fine
[@Raz_Laptop] whether it’s according to reality.
[dios_mio] I just need glasses thats all
[@Raz_Laptop] whether you exist to have the perception.
[dios_mio] well it must be, otherwise I couldn’t survive now could i?
[@Raz_Laptop] really?
[dios_mio] well obviously I exist, otherwise i wouldn’t have this experience
[@Raz_Laptop] Who says you’re operating by your own worldview?
[dios_mio] what?
[@Raz_Laptop] I certainly don’t.
[@Raz_Laptop] (think you are)
[dios_mio] I am not operating by a worldview, I am operating by my perception, it works
[@Raz_Laptop] your worldview defines your interpretation of your perceptions
[dios_mio] I used to get paranoid delusions but my medicine fixes that
[dios_mio] hardly
[@Raz_Laptop] I posit that you don’t operate by it.
[dios_mio] some unconscious convictions defines how to interpret the perception
[@Raz_Laptop] So, what basis do you have that you, in fact, exist?
[dios_mio] unconscious convictions… maybe even more: maybe kantian a priori categories
[dios_mio] well I exist because I have my experience
[@Raz_Laptop] and, I’ll posit, your unconscious is aware that your stated convictions are unlivable, and adjust your actions accordingly.
[@Raz_Laptop] and what justifies that your experience can be applied to future events?
[dios_mio] it doesnt
[@Raz_Laptop] you’re familiar with induction, are you not?
[dios_mio] well yes
[@Raz_Laptop] and the fact that it is an unwarranted form of thinking, under any worldview without an externally justified objective standard?
[dios_mio] so?
[@Raz_Laptop] so, you have no reason – whatsoever – to trust that your experience will hold true.
[@Raz_Laptop] you just do.
[dios_mio] how is that relevant with the question if I exist?
[@Raz_Laptop] is that from your worldview?
[dios_mio] you asked me if I existed
[dios_mio] how I know I exist, I said because I have my experience
[@Raz_Laptop] you don’t have warrant to assume that you exist from the fact that you think you do.
[dios_mio] why do you talk about future events now?
[@Raz_Laptop] because you aren’t even sure “you” exist TO think.
[dios_mio] well what else does “I exist” mean?
[dios_mio] a sure sign of existing is having an experience isnt it?
[@Raz_Laptop] it _assumes_ I is there to do the thinking.
[@Raz_Laptop] doesn’t it?
[@Raz_Laptop] that’s why descartes isn’t exactly top-notch.
[@Raz_Laptop] may as well say “I drink, therefore I am”
[@Raz_Laptop] so, what justification do you have for the “I” in “I exist”?
[dios_mio] but wouldn’t you agree that if one has an experience he exists?
[dios_mio] what else does existing mean?
[@Raz_Laptop] I know what it means – I don’t agree you’re justified in making that connection.
[dios_mio] I perceive my body
[@Raz_Laptop] It’s inductive.
[@Raz_Laptop] Who does?
[dios_mio] I occupy space
[@Raz_Laptop] Who does?
[dios_mio] what more proof do i need?
[@Raz_Laptop] Does who need?
[@Raz_Laptop] You begged the question in all 3 instances.
[@Raz_Laptop] “I”
[dios_mio] well lets define “I” as “my experience”
[dios_mio] it exists
[@Raz_Laptop] No, because “I” is the one having experiences.
[@Raz_Laptop] That’s still begging the question.
[dios_mio] well if he doesn’t exist how is he having experiences?
[@Raz_Laptop] I don’t know – is he?
[dios_mio] shouldn’t you first exist to perform actions?
[@Raz_Laptop] I don’t know – should he?
[@Raz_Laptop] further – what defines “should”?
[dios_mio] well, to me it seems that it is a prerequisite of performing actions to first exist
[@Raz_Laptop] it begs the question.
[dios_mio] why?
[@Raz_Laptop] “I” cannot be assume to prove “I”
[@Raz_Laptop] *d
[dios_mio] I didn’t
[@Raz_Laptop] Yes you did.
[dios_mio] don’t we need a subject to perform an action?
[@Raz_Laptop] if you assume a subject.
[dios_mio] no
[@Raz_Laptop] which we can’t, as that’s the question.
[dios_mio] the definition of performing an action requires there be a subject
[@Raz_Laptop] on what basis do subjects exist?
[@Raz_Laptop] or objects, for that matter.
[dios_mio] physically I guess
[@Raz_Laptop] that assumes objects
[@Raz_Laptop] (or subjects)
[dios_mio] maybe your question is flawed
[dios_mio] maye you want to ask “what manner”
[@Raz_Laptop] maybe you never thought about this before?
[@Raz_Laptop] we aren’t even to manner
[dios_mio] maybe you are just confused with half read philosophy
[@Raz_Laptop] we haven’t established “whether”
[dios_mio] well then your question of “basis” sounds meaningless
[@Raz_Laptop] No, this is entry level philosophy, man.
[@Raz_Laptop] “I” is _always_ assumed in philosophy.
[@Raz_Laptop] Why?
[@Raz_Laptop] Because they don’t have a basis for it.
[dios_mio] what do you mean by “basis”?
[@Raz_Laptop] warrant, justification
[dios_mio] a reason to believe it exists you mean?
[@Raz_Laptop] reason for
[@Raz_Laptop] a reason, external to you, for you to exist, that doesn’t assume you to answer the question.
[dios_mio] well why did you reject my whole grammatical argument by repeating the same original question then? because you asked me the “basis for subjects to exist” and now you say that is asking for a reason to believe it exists.. that is what we were already discussing and I was answering to
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: grammar doesn’t exist without “I” to parse it.
[dios_mio] no I disagree
[@Raz_Laptop] no, you can’t – we haven’t established “I” 😀
[dios_mio] back to my argument
[dios_mio] performing an action requires a subject, by definition.. agreed?
[@Raz_Laptop] and you haven’t established “I” to have a possessive “my” 😀
[@Raz_Laptop] if and only if said “I” can be warranted
[dios_mio] I don’t think you really understand what you are talking about.. just trying to direct the conversation to what you memorised.. without doing actual thinking
[@Raz_Laptop] or, if and only if subject/object has warrant
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: I don’t think you’re seeing what I’m talking about.
[dios_mio] you are not even addressing what I say directly, only repeating your memorized ready answers.. but they don’t fit
[dios_mio] pre-cooked answers
[@Raz_Laptop] no, I’m trying to direct you to the fundamental inductive leap you _have_ to make – and have no warrant for.
[@Raz_Laptop] that there is an “I” to make the action.
[@Raz_Laptop] or perform, etc
[dios_mio] I am not making any inductive leap
[@Raz_Laptop] so, from warrant can you derive I, for said actions I is said to perform?
[dios_mio] inductive leap you have in mind is about believing the world will be the same in future.. you are confusing issues here… your apologetic arguments get mixed up
[@Raz_Laptop] let me state it then,
[dios_mio] if an action is performed this proves there is an agent
[@Raz_Laptop] In the statement “I perform actions”
[dios_mio] because there is no action without an agent
[@Raz_Laptop] On what basis can I be said to exist, to perform said action?
[dios_mio] put “I” aside now
[@Raz_Laptop] no 😀
[dios_mio] I am talking of any agent
[@Raz_Laptop] ok.
[dios_mio] there is no action without an agent, agreed?
[@Raz_Laptop] In the statement “Any agent performs actions”
[@Raz_Laptop] On what basis can any agent be said to exist, to perform said action?
[dios_mio] what?
[dios_mio] if an action is performed, this proves there is an agent that performed it
[dios_mio] action exists, agent exists
[@Raz_Laptop] no, you assume I.
[dios_mio] lol
[@Raz_Laptop] or agent
[dios_mio] I said NOTHING about any “I”
[@Raz_Laptop] if said agent X is said to perform action Y
[dios_mio] no, start from the action
[@Raz_Laptop] what warrant does agent X have to be said to exist, to perform action Y?
[dios_mio] if an action exists, this means there is an agent who performed it, because an action is never without an agent
[@Raz_Laptop] No, that’s begging the question 😀
[dios_mio] we first observe the ACTION
[dios_mio] we first observe the ACTION
[dios_mio] ok?
[dios_mio] we first observe the action
[@Raz_Laptop] I’m not worried about observation.
[dios_mio] then we conclude that there is an AGENT
[dios_mio] because an ACTION is NEVER WITHOUT AN AGENT
[dios_mio] agreed?
[@Raz_Laptop] or, conversely, an agent is never without an action.
[dios_mio] no that doesn’t follow
[@Raz_Laptop] Yes it does.
[dios_mio] and I don’t claim that
[dios_mio] no it doesn’t
[dios_mio] an agent can exist and perform no action
[@Raz_Laptop] It just doesn’t from your argument 😀
[dios_mio] no
[@Raz_Laptop] no it can’t.
[dios_mio] you are putting words in my mouth
[dios_mio] why not?
[@Raz_Laptop] agents are not nihilistic.
[dios_mio] a person can exist without doing anything, example the deist God
[dios_mio] lol
[dios_mio] what does nihilism got to do with it??
[@Raz_Laptop] nihilist*ic*
[dios_mio] we are talking about doing things
[@Raz_Laptop] exactly.
[@Raz_Laptop] What is doing things?
[dios_mio] performing actions
[dios_mio] being the subject of a verb
[@Raz_Laptop] and why do you assume the action is the warrant for the existence of the things performing the action?
[dios_mio] because
[dios_mio] for the 10th time
[dios_mio] AN ACTION CANNOT BE WITHOUT A PERFORMER AGENT
[@Raz_Laptop] I heard you the first 9 😀
[@Raz_Laptop] Why?
[dios_mio] because that is part of the definition of “performing an action”
[@Raz_Laptop] okay.
[@Raz_Laptop] I disagree 😀
[dios_mio] give me an example of an action performed by no agent
[dios_mio] a performed action
[@Raz_Laptop] did I say there was?
[dios_mio] with no performer
[dios_mio] well then why do you deny what I said?
[@Raz_Laptop] The question was whether that was warrant for it.
[dios_mio] can there be a performed action with no performer?
[dios_mio] no
[dios_mio] answer my question please
[@Raz_Laptop] Of course not. But that assumes there is a performer.
[dios_mio] what assumes?
[@Raz_Laptop] Why must we assume an action always requires a performer?
[dios_mio] not any action
[dios_mio] but a PERFORMED action
[@Raz_Laptop] so some actions do not have a performer?
[dios_mio] correct
[@Raz_Laptop] Such as?
[dios_mio] it is raining
[@Raz_Laptop] or was there a qualifier such as “sentient” performer?
[dios_mio] “it is raining”
[@Raz_Laptop] And what performed that action?
[dios_mio] nothing
[dios_mio] but that is beyond our topic
[@Raz_Laptop] oh… so… ex nihilo rain?
[dios_mio] we are talking about performed actions.. there is such a category in grammar.. there are certain verbs that require an active subject performing them
[dios_mio] you are so confused my friend
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: I think you’re trying to dodge the induction required for your statement 😀
[dios_mio] i think you are confused, and you are mixing the existence of self problem with the induction argument presuppers use.. the two have no connection at all
[@Raz_Laptop] 1) you assume “I” exists to perform the action
[dios_mio] no
[dios_mio] I prove that I exist from the fact that there is such a thing as “my experience”
[@Raz_Laptop] 2) You assume that because the action “I” performs exists, the “I” is responsible for it
[@Raz_Laptop] 3) You assume that experience can be successfully applied to future events, due to past experience.
[dios_mio] you just heard from somewhere that Cartesian argument is circular, so you keep pressing that part, without ever confronting what I say at all… anything I say you will just repeat your memorized line.. it is pointless with you, because you heard that cartesian argument is circular, and you believe in strongly, and probably it is part of your apologetic too so you need it badly
[dios_mio] this is not going to work my friend
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: no, you’re just going to continue to assert it.
[@Raz_Laptop] I know you will, and I’m used to it.
[dios_mio] why is it important to prove I exist anyway?
[dios_mio] and how do you prove you exist by pointing at your bible? shouldn’t you first prove that your perception of the bible is real?
[@Raz_Laptop] because everything you perceive depends on your existence. You can’t even prove that without induction, so how can anything else be proven from that?
[dios_mio] so how do you do better? lets see
[dios_mio] if there is such a problem it is universal
[dios_mio] you cannot escape it talking of any phenomenon, jesus or the bible.. because ultimately they are YOUR PERCEPTION
[@Raz_Laptop] Only universal to those without an objective standard 😀
[dios_mio] you don’t have it
[@Raz_Laptop] Nope.
[@Raz_Laptop] Sure I do.
[dios_mio] how do you have it?
[dios_mio] prove you exist
[dios_mio] lets see
[@Raz_Laptop] Because I can inductively reason, with warrant.
[dios_mio] ok go ahead, I am listening
[@Raz_Laptop] 1) God exists
[@Raz_Laptop] 1a) God is self-existent, and created all things
[@Raz_Laptop] 1b) God is the basis for all possible contingencies, as the sole self-existent object
[@Raz_Laptop] 2) Scripture is the self-revelation of the self-existent God
[@Raz_Laptop] 2a) All knowledge necessary to warrant existence, true knowledge, and true faith can be derived from Scripture.
[@Raz_Laptop] 2b) Therefore, Scripture gives me warrant for any inductive reasoning in accordance with God’s self-revelation.
[@Raz_Laptop] I can be certain I exist – because God exists, revealed that He ordains all things in accordance with His will, and my existence is in accordance with that ordination.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, swell.. how do you know God exists though?
[@Raz_Laptop] 2)
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, do you mean (2) proves God’s existence? as in the bible?
[@Raz_Laptop] God’s self-revelation is sufficient ground to be certain He exists, yes.
[@Raz_Laptop] ie: provides warrant
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, well I thought you were going to prove you exist, but you make reference to something in the world, which is part of your experience, and it is exactly the reality of your experience that is we are doubting here… you PERCEIVE the bible, and you cannot use whats in it to prove that you exist, because if you dont exist the bible doesnt exist either
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, your argument is circular
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: no, I make reference to someone which both created and even sustains the world – by which all things exists, and for whom all things exist.
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: my perception of it, as one indwelt by the same God who wrote it, is sufficient warrant.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, you are making reference to phenomenon, things “you” perceive, you ASSUME they exist by assuming you exist, and then you use them to prove “you” exist.. circular..
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: the same reason I know I exist.
[dios_mio] raz, circular
[@Raz_Laptop] all things are referenced to and by the same standard.
[@Raz_Laptop] no, central.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, I hope you realize someday that the cartesian doubt is universal.. christian cannot escape it by referring to objects in the world
[@Raz_Laptop] all things are known and understood by a single reference.
[@Raz_Laptop] I don’t – I refer to the God who created it.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, you prove you exist by saying God sustains it, and you prove God by referring to the bible, and you prove the bible exists by referring to your perception of it, and the veracity of your perception is what you were set out to prove in the first place… circular
[@Raz_Laptop] His self-revelation is the means by which God reveals Himself to perception, and self-authenticates it by Himself, via the Holy Spirit.
[@Raz_Laptop] No, central, as I’ve already explained.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, what do you mean “central”?
[@Raz_Laptop] all facts exist solely because God exists.
[dios_mio] you are not explaining anything.. only repeating your argument
[dios_mio] you are not addressing my objection
[@Raz_Laptop] I think you’re missing the point, dios.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, I think you are evading my objection
[@Raz_Laptop] I don’t prove God exists.
[dios_mio] you only reject it calling your argument is “central”
[dios_mio] that is not addressing my argument
[@Raz_Laptop] I have warrant for all true beliefs because God exists.
[dios_mio] I asked you how you know God exists and you said because scripture gives you reason to believe in him
[dios_mio] and how do you know God exists?
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: I’m rejecting your premise that God has to be proven.
[@Raz_Laptop] God proves all things.
[dios_mio] well then how do you prove you exist?
[@Raz_Laptop] God exists – God revealed Himself to man – God’s revelation gives me sufficient warrant to know I exist – therefore, I exist.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, how do you know the bible you perceive exists?
[dios_mio] [Raz_Laptop] how do you know whether your perception is in accordance with it?
[@Raz_Laptop] dios: because I have the Spirit of God to verify it, which indwells believers.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, how do you know your perception of the “spirit of God” is a true perception?
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, how do you know you exist at all?
[@Raz_Laptop] because truth is defined solely by God – who defines all things.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, but how do you know God exists?
[@Raz_Laptop] and verifies his own statement.
[@Raz_Laptop] I’ve already answered that.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, you gave me two different answers for that.. first you said the bible proves it, then you said you dont have to prove it.. which is it?
[@Raz_Laptop] I don’t think I said “prove” – if I did, I misspoke.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, justify, warrant whatever.. same question.. go ahead
[@Raz_Laptop] no, they aren’t.
[@Raz_Laptop] they are specific terms.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, ok I ask the same question using the term justification..
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, how do you know God exists?.
[@Raz_Laptop] Any claim I make in accordance with the self-revelation of God is verified by the author of that self-revelation.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, what do you mean by the “self revelation”? the bible?
[@Raz_Laptop] Yes, I believe I defined that earlier.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, so are you telling me that you know God exists because there is a bible?
[@Raz_Laptop] I know God exists because He revealed Himself to exist, and then grants sufficient justification to His revelation internally to me, via the work of the Holy Spirit.
[@Raz_Laptop] *for His revelation
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, what about the bible? why are you changing your terms every second?
[@Raz_Laptop] In other words, dios
[GinoMan] or lets say I decided to mess with them
[@Raz_Laptop] every fact that exists is directly contingent on God.
[@Raz_Laptop] and there are none that are non-contingent.
[dios_mio] Raz_Laptop, is that from the definition of God?
[@RazorsKiss] Where is God defined?
@RazorsKiss changes computers
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, you said every fact that exists is contingent on God.. does that follow from the definition of God?
[@RazorsKiss] God is the sole self-existent being, and creator of all things – thus, yes, that is from the self-definition of God.
[@RazorsKiss] As found in Scripture.
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, so if God exists every fact will depend on him.. but what if he doesnt exist?
[@RazorsKiss] then I’d have to be entirely subjective – like you 😀
[@RazorsKiss] objectivity is a function of self-existence, I’d posit.
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, so you have no real argument for the existence of God, but just an arbitrary choice just to avoid the cartesian problem?
[@RazorsKiss] Define “arbitrary”, please?
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, I use arbitrary in its daily life meaning, as in based on whim
[@RazorsKiss] Then no, it’s not based on my “whim”
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, what is it based on then?
[@RazorsKiss] It is, however, based on it’s technical use – as based on the standard of an arbiter.
[dios_mio] ok nice pun
[dios_mio] but you are not answering my question
[@RazorsKiss] A self-existent God, who created everything that exists, will necessarily be the sole arbiter of all things.
[dios_mio] what do you mean self-existent? are you going to argue an ontological argument?
[@RazorsKiss] It is not from an attempt to avoid the cartesian problem – it is based on the nature of God.
[dios_mio] the definition of God?
[dios_mio] do you prove God from his definition?
[dios_mio] as in an ontological argument?
[@RazorsKiss] The ontological argument is useful as a definition of God as the necessary being.
[dios_mio] I didnt ask you what you think of the ontological argument
[@RazorsKiss] And can be taken from scripture.
[dios_mio] is your ultimate argument an ontological argument?
[dios_mio] we are still talking about how you know God exists..
[@RazorsKiss] However, God as self-existent is the foundation for an objective standard – and that is entirely from Scripture, as God;s self-revelation.
[dios_mio] are you trying to say that God must exist?
[@RazorsKiss] I know God exists, in one statement of the position, because it is impossible to believe anything whatsoever if He does not.
[dios_mio] so you choose to believe in God just to avoid subjectivism?
[@RazorsKiss] No.
[dios_mio] why then?
[@RazorsKiss] That’s positing a personal desire to avoid a certain philosophical position 😀
[dios_mio] right
[@RazorsKiss] Which isn’t the reason I do so 😀
[dios_mio] it seemed for a bit as though that was your intent
[dios_mio] but whatever.. why do you believe in God then?
[@RazorsKiss] I believe in God because He has revealed himself to exist, has perfectly justified Himself to exist through that revelation, and has verified His self-revelation through the Person of the Holy Spirit, granted to believers.
[dios_mio] how do you know that he revealed himself?
[@RazorsKiss] Further, I believe he exists, because I know Him, love Him, and have been saved by Him.
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: see 2) above.
[dios_mio] type it again please
[dios_mio] because scripture exists?
[@RazorsKiss] 2) Scripture is the self-revelation of the self-existent God
[@RazorsKiss] 2a) All knowledge necessary to warrant existence, true knowledge, and true faith can be derived from Scripture.
[dios_mio] so you know that God revealed himself to exist because there is a thing called the Bible?
[@RazorsKiss] 2b) Therefore, Scripture gives me warrant for any inductive reasoning in accordance with God’s self-revelation.
[dios_mio] so do you know that God revealed himself to exist because there is a thing called the Bible?
[@RazorsKiss] Everything we know about God is derived from Scripture, yes.
[dios_mio] how do you know that the scripture exists?
[@RazorsKiss] Because God exists, of course.
[dios_mio] how do you know God exists? because scripture exists
[dios_mio] circular
[@RazorsKiss] yet, God is also part of every believer.
[dios_mio] circular my friend
[dios_mio] so obviously blindingly circular
[@RazorsKiss] so, tell me why “actions exist because they have subjects to perform them, and subjects exist because they perform actions” isn’t? 😀
[dios_mio] ok lets say the cartesian solution to his own problem fails.. that was what I was arguing.. but we just seen that you have no solution either
[dios_mio] I was arguing the cartesian solution I mean
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: I have warrant – the self-existence of God 😀
[dios_mio] but that is beside the point
[dios_mio] do you accept that your solution is circular?
[dios_mio] no you have nothing
[@RazorsKiss] No, i don’t.
[dios_mio] you have just a circular argument
[dios_mio] which amounts to nothing
[@RazorsKiss] What warrants God, to complete the circle?
[@RazorsKiss] hrmm?
[dios_mio] why did you change the subject talking about the previous subject suddenly if you dont accept your argument is circular?
[dios_mio] you say God exists because scripture.. and you say scripture exists becuase God exists.. how is that not circular?
[@RazorsKiss] because you seem to think you don’t even have a circularity problem.
[@RazorsKiss] *I* know God exists because of Scripture.
[dios_mio] why is it relevant to what we are talking about?
[@RazorsKiss] *God* doesn’t exist because of Scripture.
[dios_mio] lets say my argument fails.. so what? that doest mean your argument is true.. we just saw that your argument is circular
[@RazorsKiss] There’s a crucial difference between the two concepts.
[dios_mio] but you said that he does
[@RazorsKiss] No, yours assumes subjectivity.
[dios_mio] ok how do you know God exists then?
[dios_mio] you said because scripture says so
[dios_mio] didn’t you?
[@RazorsKiss] Mine does not. My knowledge is contingent – but God’s knowledge is the cause for all contingent knowledge
[dios_mio] if I dont have a way out of cartesian doubt, then you don’t either
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: they don’t prove the other.
[dios_mio] that is how you define God.. but you cannot tell me why we should think that he exists
[@RazorsKiss] One is means.
[@RazorsKiss] The other is source.
[@RazorsKiss] They do not prove each other.
[dios_mio] I am not asking you the cause of God’s existence.. I am asking you the reason to believe he exists.. and you referred to the scripture.. yet you cannot prove that scripture exists without referring to God in a circular way
[@RazorsKiss] scripture is itself self-verifying.
[dios_mio] I am not talking about the truth of scripture’s content
[dios_mio] I am asking of its existence at all
[@RazorsKiss] I guess I don’t see what your objection is, then.
[dios_mio] I am asking you how you know that the bible you hold in your hands exists
[@RazorsKiss] Or maybe my eyes are starting to cross by being asked the same question 20+ times 😀
[@RazorsKiss] because God created/revealed it – and because God created me.
[dios_mio] and how do you know that God exists and did those things again?
[@RazorsKiss] because God revealed it in Scripture, and created me to know it.
[@RazorsKiss] That’s why they are presented together.
[@RazorsKiss] I will posit one thing that may be helpful.
[@RazorsKiss] How many steps back from “I” perceive am I, from my grounds of certainty?
[dios_mio] so you know because you read it in the scripture? but what if the whole experience of “holding and reading the scripture” or “listening to your preacher” or “praying” or “feeling God” and things are not true perceptions at all?
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: justified/verified/warranted by the presence of God in me.
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: how many steps back from “I perceive” are you, for your grounds of certainty?
[dios_mio] explain this “presence of God in you”… is it yet another perception ultimately? isn’t it part of your experience? and how do you it is a true perception?
[@RazorsKiss] Compare the two.
[dios_mio] don’t change the subject
[@RazorsKiss] It’s not a change of subject.
[@RazorsKiss] It’s the same subject all along.
[dios_mio] answer my question please
[@RazorsKiss] it differs from perception as object differs from perception of object.
[dios_mio] ok go on
[@RazorsKiss] When I say in me – I mean “in me”. God is a part of me – not identical to, but in addition to.
[dios_mio] do you have direct experience of it? or do you experience your perception of it?
[@RazorsKiss] It isn’t perception, but self.
[dios_mio] is he part of your experience you mean?
[dios_mio] oh God is your “self”?
[dios_mio] you are God then
[dios_mio] ?
[@RazorsKiss] notice the “not identical to, but in addition to”?
[@RazorsKiss] a “rider” to self, as it were.
[dios_mio] well I say all you have is your experience and nothing else ultimately.. what now?
[@RazorsKiss] you can say it.
[@RazorsKiss] That doesn’t mean it’s true 😀
[dios_mio] “god” is part of your experience
[dios_mio] well that is the jist of the cartesian doubt my friend
[dios_mio] and you are not avoiding it in anyway
[@RazorsKiss] Now, let’s compare to your warrant for any knowledge, shall we?
[dios_mio] especially not with your bible
[dios_mio] no, don’t change the subject
[dios_mio] not until you admit you cannot avoid the cartesian doubt
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: due to your assumption of what constitutes certainty, apparently.
[dios_mio] you cannot avoid the subjectivism
[@RazorsKiss] I don’t think you read that last statement carefully.
[dios_mio] you cannot prove that the bible you hold in your hands is real
[@RazorsKiss] Until you admit you cannot avoid cartesian doubt (subjectivism), you cannot avoid subjectivism.
[@RazorsKiss] so, let’s rephrase that. “until you admit you cannot avoid subjectivism – you cannot avoid subjectivism”
[@RazorsKiss] make sense?
[@RazorsKiss] Not so much.
[@RazorsKiss] The only way to _avoid_ subjectivism – is TO avoid cartesian doubt.
[dios_mio] lets say the cartesian solution to his own problem fails.. so what? it is not just my problem.. it is YOUR problem too.. you cannot avoid the problem simply referring to phenomena in the world such as the bible, or your psychological experience… cartesian demon goes deeper than any of them
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: unless, as I’ve been saying, I do avoid it.
[dios_mio] oh so lets avoid the cartesian problem by ARBITRARILY positing the existence of a God?
[@RazorsKiss] in which case, I have all the warrant in the world for every single thing I’ve said.
[dios_mio] you avoid nothing
[dios_mio] you have NOTHING
[@RazorsKiss] No, by the Arbiter God imposing His own will on all of creation, and necessarily being the objective standard for all knowledge.
[dios_mio] we’ve been through that my friend
[dios_mio] I refuted you
[@RazorsKiss] You aren’t going to accept it until God grants it to you.
[dios_mio] you are just not honest enough to come to terms with it
[@RazorsKiss] No, you refuted your view of it.
[@RazorsKiss] You assume that self-existence does not grant warrant – you have to assume it doesn’t exist to refute it.
[@RazorsKiss] If: God is self-existent, and created all things
[dios_mio] so are you going to argue an ontological argument?
[@RazorsKiss] If: God’s self-revelation is the source of all true knowledge
[dios_mio] do you mean God necessarily exists?
[dios_mio] if not then you have no case
[@RazorsKiss] Then: God’s existence is the necessary condition to render all things coherent, and knowable.
[dios_mio] you cannot prove God by referring to your experience of things..
[@RazorsKiss] Assuming I did – what’s your argument?
[dios_mio] lets see your ontological argument
[@RazorsKiss] refute anselm’s.
[dios_mio] existence is not a predicate
[@RazorsKiss] of?
[dios_mio] thats all
[dios_mio] thats the kantian answer
[@RazorsKiss] ok?
[dios_mio] yes
[dios_mio] anything else?
[@RazorsKiss] And?
[dios_mio] thats all
[dios_mio] I answered it
[@RazorsKiss] So… 5 words is the case.
[dios_mio] yes
[dios_mio] first time you hear it?
[@RazorsKiss] Nope.
[@RazorsKiss] You can’t… expand on that any?
[dios_mio] do you need it?
[@RazorsKiss] Kant sure did. For reams.
[@RazorsKiss] No, i don’t need it.
[dios_mio] do you first accept that there is no way out for you except for an ontological argument?
[@RazorsKiss] I don’t agree with it – but I’d like you to show a bit more effort, for all of the blustering 😀
[@RazorsKiss] 1) “no way out” is a bit… dramatic.
[dios_mio] way out from the cartesian demon
[dios_mio] tell me
[dios_mio] do you have any place
[@RazorsKiss] 2) You haven’t conclusively demonstrated anything except that you still require evidence for the source of all evidence – which doesn’t bode well for your understanding of the presup position.
[dios_mio] you dont doubt just the veracity of the perception, you doubt the self too.. you dont accept descartes’ own “cogito ergo sum”… you have to doubt the existence of everything right now
[@RazorsKiss] 3) Yes, you made the objection that the transference of the revelation is what you consider to be the failure point. My answers still stands- the presence of the Spirit counters it.
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: no, I don’t.
[@RazorsKiss] you have to – but I don’t.
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, you are failing the grasp how destructive descartes doubt is… you think you can talk of your bible and your perception of God as if it can validate the truth of your perception.. heck you dont even believe it is YOUR perception
[dios_mio] you do too
[dios_mio] it is an universal problem
[@RazorsKiss] I know exactly how destructive it is.
[@RazorsKiss] That’s why i used it in the first place.
[dios_mio] you are just too philosophical primitive to see it
[@RazorsKiss] ah, the “if you were only as smart as X” argument.
[@RazorsKiss] yeah, silly me, thinking induction is inherently destructive to any certainty whatsoever.
[dios_mio] descartes doubt is not about induction
[@RazorsKiss] yes it is.
[dios_mio] no it is not
[@RazorsKiss] You have to assume the “think” applies to “I”
[@RazorsKiss] the thoughts are assumed to be generated by self.
[@RazorsKiss] therefore, self exists.
[@RazorsKiss] ie: the premises of an argument are believed to support the conclusion but do not entail it
[dios_mio] look, first comes Descartes doubt.. then comes his first answer of cogito to restore the “i exist”, then comes to restore the truth of his perception by an ontological proof of God, then he says God wouldnt deceive him
[@RazorsKiss] see what I’m getting at?
[@RazorsKiss] I don’t think “I” has any warrant for connection to “think”.
[dios_mio] induction is about the phenomena of the world.. Descartes is doubt the world ITSELF.. induction doesnt come to it
[@RazorsKiss] oh, i think it does.
[dios_mio] you need to read descartes again
[dios_mio] bye
* dios_mio (fake@88.241.140.113) Quit (The day that you stop running is the day that you arrive)

For dios_mio – a reminder

dios: I referred you here earlier today – and I hope you remember this conversation, and really think about it. once you do, I hope you read the followup in light of that, and see if I’ve been saying anything too different.

* dios_mio (test@88.243.102.125) has joined #apologetics
[dios_mio] dood
[dios_mio] is Christianity true or is atheism true?
[@RazorsKiss] Christianity is true, dios.
[dios_mio] how do you know?
[dios_mio] i was thinking about evolution, if it is true then we are just accidents
[dios_mio] then our existence is pointless
[@RazorsKiss] Because God reveals Himself through Scripture, in those who are believers, and in nature to both show this to be true, and to verify it as true.
[dios_mio] I honestly think that christians are the best people
[@RazorsKiss] It is true that evolution results in that.
[@RazorsKiss] I don’t think we’re the best people.
[dios_mio] the christian worldview has hope, contrasted with the bleak worldview of evolution and atheism
[@RazorsKiss] I think we’ve been given incredible gifts that we don’t deserve.
[@RazorsKiss] dios_mio: that’s why we’re told to “always be ready” to give an answer for the hope that is within us.
[dios_mio] i would rather be around christians than cynical atheists, or violent and dumb muslims
[dios_mio] yes
[dios_mio] but i dont think you have an adequate answer
[@RazorsKiss] So would I – because Christians share something in common – God in them.
[@RazorsKiss] Well, dios, the answer isn’t mine. That’s the problem.
[@RazorsKiss] We give an answer – but the answer is what Scripture commands us to give.
[dios_mio] because unfortunately evolution is true… that doesn’t mean that we must forsake our belief in our worth as human beings… if we surrender to the world of science we will lose the meaning of our world
[@RazorsKiss] If you assume that a priori, I can’t convince you otherwise.
[@RazorsKiss] Especially if you understand that it results in meaningless.
[@RazorsKiss] *meaninglessness
[dios_mio] it is not about assuming it, I just cant reject it when there is so much evidence
[dios_mio] yes its results are devastating
[@RazorsKiss] All evidence is filtered through assumptions.
[@RazorsKiss] But we’ve gone over that before 😀
[dios_mio] true, it is pointless to talk about whether evolution is true
[dios_mio] but lets talk about its implications
[@RazorsKiss] The main problem: do you accept scientists as having the correct assumptions?
[dios_mio] it offers a world devoid of value
[@RazorsKiss] Or do you accept God’s self-revelation to mankind?
[dios_mio] I believe that the debate about evolution is one scientists cannot lose in their own field
[@RazorsKiss] Remember – science relies on the assumption that only material things are “real”, and that uniformity is required to see the same result.
[@RazorsKiss] However, that same scientific assumption also says that the process that results in the evolution of humans is a _random_ process.
[@RazorsKiss] You can’t have it both ways.
[dios_mio] looking at the world from science’s perspective alone results in many contradictions
[@RazorsKiss] Is it uniform, or is it random?
[@RazorsKiss] but, you can’t assume it to be uniform without a real, underlying meaning for the laws that give it regularity. You can’t assume the random, evolving processes, unless you reject the uniformity of nature.
[@RazorsKiss] They’re contradictory principles – but yet scientists hold to both.
[dios_mio] we are facing a paradox, we cannot reject the findings of science and at the same time the results of science threatens to undermine our human world…
[@RazorsKiss] Why? Because they come to the data with certain assumptions.
[@RazorsKiss] the paradox is that people accept a self-contradictory system.
[dios_mio] the results of science threaten to undermine even the starting assumptions of science itself
[@RazorsKiss] Yes, they do.
[@RazorsKiss] But it’s not science doing it.
[@RazorsKiss] It’s the assumptions that science is approached with – by scientists.
[@RazorsKiss] you don’t approach facts in a vacuum.
[@RazorsKiss] There aren’t any “brute” facts.
[@RazorsKiss] They are facts – but they are always interpreted in the light of your philosophy, or worldview – your system of thinking.
[@RazorsKiss] and when your worldview is self-defeating, what can you expect of the results of it?
[dios_mio] yes, that is a common vantillian theme, and it is correct
[@RazorsKiss] My worldview can stand on it’s own principles, and not defeat itself.
[@RazorsKiss] The materialistic evolutionist _cannot_ account for his own principles within his own worldview.
[dios_mio] it is like when we said earlier that the results of science threaten to undermine the starting assumptions of science..
[@RazorsKiss] To make them meaningful, he has to pull aspects from elsewhere – which shows it’s bankruptcy
[BK_DL] did someone mention Van Til
[@RazorsKiss] Everything I know, is known because _of_ the foundation of my system, not in spite of it.
[BK_DL] ?
[BK_DL] 🙂
* BK_DL is now known as BK_
[dios_mio] if evolution is true it doesn’t matter what one believes anyway… because it doesn’t matter whether one believes in evolution or christianity
[@RazorsKiss] and, further, it doesn’t matter what evolution says – because it may or may not be true.
[@RazorsKiss] it undercuts it’s own foundation for whether or not anything is true.
[dios_mio] truth itself becomes meaningless.. like Bonz/Baawa refuses to use the word “truth”
[@RazorsKiss] Correct.
[@RazorsKiss] Now, let me ask you – do we not have minds that think, and think logically? (or can/should)
[dios_mio] yes certainly
[@RazorsKiss] If this is so – a materialistic account of origins has NO explanation – and in fact, denies – the very concept used to formulate it
[dios_mio] then there is the argument of plantinga against evolutionary naturalism, it makes an interesting point too
[@RazorsKiss] *explanation of
[@RazorsKiss] What possible reason is there to hold to the truth of a system that results in the denial of truth itself?
[@RazorsKiss] Is that even coherent? Can it make sense at all?
[dios_mio] the thing is the evolutionary worldview leaves us in a world devoid of any value or meaning,,, undermining the philosophical foundations of biology and all science,,,
[@RazorsKiss] it says, basically, that we’re doing nothing, for nothing, and know nothing
[dios_mio] we are meant to believe in some sort of God
[@RazorsKiss] What possible reason is there to hold to such a thing?
[@RazorsKiss] There is nothing to hold TO!
[@RazorsKiss] Yes, we are.
[@RazorsKiss] Scripture declares that very succinctly, in many places.
[@RazorsKiss] What scientists look at, are all God’s facts, and must be interpreted according to God’s principles, by which He governs and sustains the universe.
[dios_mio] but I think we must just accept the paradoxical situation that science ultimately undermines itself and shatters our worldview… because denying science isn’t easy
[@RazorsKiss] When you fail to do that, all you end up with is nihilism.
[dios_mio] I think that our existence is built upon such a foundation that it can only hold together if we look at it from a religious/theistic point of view….
[@RazorsKiss] I think that the problem isn’t denying science.
[@RazorsKiss] I don’t deny science.
[dios_mio] but that doesn’t mean that there is a God.. I dont think there is a God, but just that truth is meant to be contradictory and irrational
[@RazorsKiss] I deny the assumptions that the typical scientist uses to interpret the data he sees.
[@RazorsKiss] If truth is irrational, and has no grounds, it is not truth.
[dios_mio] well you deny the evolution part
[dios_mio] yeah, but that is the paradoxical nature of our existence
[@RazorsKiss] Evolution has no real data to support it. It is completely philosophical in nature.
[dios_mio] because see, evolution is indeed true, and scriptural religions are made up
[dios_mio] I dont think you have the biological credentials to dispute evolution
[@RazorsKiss] It doesn’t take a biology phd to realize that there are no transitional forms, there is no way to explain evolutionary biology with what we see, and that there is no evidence, whatsoever, of a complex organism evolving in an inter-species manner
[dios_mio] thats a simplistic view of biology
[@RazorsKiss] Not to mention the fact that even a cursory examination of the chemical composition, it’s ultimate complexity, the generally irreducible aspects of so, so many of the systems in only the human body, let alone those of a myriad of animals
[@RazorsKiss] cannot possibly lead an observer to surmise that the debate is evidencial, in any way.
[@RazorsKiss] It cannot be.
[@RazorsKiss] It was an off-the cuff response to an off-the-cuff comment – I wasn’t writing a paper 😀
[@RazorsKiss] So yeah, it’s gonna be short and to the point
[@RazorsKiss] heh
[@RazorsKiss] brb
[dios_mio] “It is a pointless battle, which science cannot lose on its own ground, and where any gains for the attackers will only be discreditable reflections of political power. Meanwhile, both sides seem to overlook the fact that the exercise is irrelevant. The march of science in fact encounters unbreachable limits, already clearly perceived and defined by Kant.”
[dios_mio] http://www.friesian.com/god.htm
[@RazorsKiss] the fact is, I would again argue, that those limits are the limits of any system which is self-defeating.
[dios_mio] actually check this page, it is written especially about evolution versus creationism: http://www.friesian.com/design.htm
[@RazorsKiss] It cannot explain, account, or argue any of it’s conclusions sucessfully to a meaningful, knowable foundation.
[@RazorsKiss] You can only reduce it to a supposed “paradox” in every case – which is just a way of saying “I can’t answer that” 😀
[@RazorsKiss] but really, brb 😀
[dios_mio] ok
[dios_mio] “We then must ask, “Is science ‘naturalistic’?” The answer to that is “yes,” because naturalism, properly undertood, is a method, an empirical method, which is the very essence of modern science ever since Galileo. The Intelligent Design theorists want to claim an empirical justification themselves, but the assumptions that they introduce into their method are inconsistent with the very logic of scientific method.”
[BK_] ” I dont think there is a God, but just that truth is meant to be contradictory and irrational”
[BK_] do you mean this, dios_mio?
[dios_mio] well yes, truth from the point of view science destroys our human world and takes away all its value and meaning
[BK_] so truth from the point of view of science it meant to be contradictory?
[BK_] or truth in general?
[dios_mio] this philosopher I am quoting accepts evolution, but in philosophy he is not a naturalist, he believes in meaning and value.. he is actually a Platonist
[dios_mio] but I dont understand he can believe both in evolution and meaning
[dios_mio] well I mean the greater truth about our existence… the truth is that we are just chemical accidents that were not intended to be
[BK_] so that wasn’t your point of view – it was a quote?
[dios_mio] no it is my point of view.. that philosopher has different views
[dios_mio] he believes in value and meaning
[@RazorsKiss] We can go back and forth with quotes, dios – but I don’t think it has any merit in the long run. Under naturalism, none of those words has any objective meaning, and can mean practically anything at all.
[BK_] well, do you not see a problem claiming truth is supposed to be contradictory, and then saying “the truth is that we are just chemical accidents”?
[dios_mio] but I dont understand how he can reconcile it with evolution
[@RazorsKiss] He doesn’t. he holds contradictory views – it’s ultimately self-defeating.
[BK_] perhaps I don’t understand what you mean when you say truth is “meant to be contradictory”
[@RazorsKiss] Platonists cannot hold the views they do, for that matter – not consistently.
[dios_mio] BK_, the implications of that truth causes a lot of problems for us, because it takes away all value and meaning from the world
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, that guy I am quoting is a very intelligent philosopher, trust me he would put Van Til inhis place
[@RazorsKiss] But you just said there is no meaning – truth is meaningless, so you can’t be holding to anything meaningful, by that statement.
[BK_] no, the implications of “truth is meant to be contradictory” is much more problematic than just taking away meaning and value
[BK_] it *means* your very statement has no meaning
[@RazorsKiss] It is not truth – it is mere subjective opinion, with no worth, because worth has no meaning either.
[dios_mio] BK_, well yeah probably… but what can we do?
[BK_] it *means* that what you say means the opposite of what you say
[@RazorsKiss] We can reject a self-refuting system, is what we can do.
[BK_] it *means* that when you say you don’t believe in God, you actually believe in God
[dios_mio] can we deny the evidence of evolution and years of scientific work just because it destroys our worldview and undermine the meaning of our existence and cause us paradoxes?
[BK_] if one’s worldview undermines logic and truth, then that worldview cannot logically be true
[BK_] if your worldview is true, you cannot trust the evidence of evolution and years of scientific work in the first place
[dios_mio] the thing is, you cannot reject a whole chunk of science simply with a reductio ad absurdum
[@RazorsKiss] there’s no evidence, under that system there is nothing to deny OR hold, and whether you hodl it or not has nothing to say in either direction.
[@RazorsKiss] It is complete and total anarchism, with no possible meaning to anything whatsoever – including itself.
[BK_] in other words, your worldview refutes itself
[dios_mio] here we have a clash between empirical evidence and traditional foundations for any knowledge
[@RazorsKiss] So why bother trying to hold it? It’s nothing.
[@RazorsKiss] There is no foundation for it – it undercuts it’s own foundation.
[BK_] you cannot trust that empirical evidence, dios_mio
[@RazorsKiss] Empiricism destroys itself, because it results in meaninglessness, and says that what you “know” – you do not know.
[dios_mio] the thing is, science started out from humanly foundations that none of us can object.. it is just where it led in the end that makes us realize that we have a problem
[@RazorsKiss] Science is only as good as it’s starting assumptions
[BK_] where did it lead?
[dios_mio] BK_, evolution
[BK_] how do you know that?
[dios_mio] BK_, well, because evolution is taught in all biology departments?
[BK_] because if your staring assumptions are true, it couldn’t lead anywhere
[BK_] that’s an appeal to authority
[BK_] there mere teaching of something in biology departments doesn’t mean it is true
[@RazorsKiss] (which has no authority, since it results in meaninglessness, by your own admission)
[BK_] after all, people have taught all sorts of things that we now consider incorrect, in biology departments
[dios_mio] creationist objections to evolution are worthless… like that quote from friesian.com “It is a pointless battle, which science cannot lose on its own ground
[@RazorsKiss] an authority without meaning is no authority.
[BK_] let’s not switch gears here, dios_mio
[BK_] you have made an assertion that science leads to evolution (a belief that it is true)
[BK_] I am saying your conclusion (that truth is contradictory) means science does *not* lead to that at all
[dios_mio] BK_, evolution by natural selection is being confirmed everyday.. its never been falsified in the past 150 years
[BK_] and what is assumed during that “confirmation” process?
[BK_] that truth is *not* contradictory, of course
[dios_mio] BK_, I meant truth in a greater scale, as in putting the implications of evolution regarding our cosmic meaning
[dios_mio] putting its implications in context I mean
[BK_] then I don’t follow what you mean
[BK_] what is the nature of truth, dios_mio?
[dios_mio] nature of truth?
[BK_] yes
[BK_] how does one know when something is true?
[dios_mio] well obviously truth is correspondence to reality
[BK_] how do you identify something as “true”?
[BK_] obviously?
[dios_mio] if you don’t count the coherence theorists
[BK_] there is more than one school of thought on that …
[dios_mio] yeah
[BK_] hehe
[BK_] well …
[BK_] that begs the question
[BK_] how does one know when something corresponds to reality?
[dios_mio] you not a correspondist?
[BK_] I am a Christian
[dios_mio] I thought it was the atheist nihilists like Rorty who were accepting a coherence theory
[BK_] how does one know when something corresponds to reality?
[@RazorsKiss] he’s asking you – he hasn’t made a positive assertion yet on the subject 😀
[dios_mio] well you gotta look and see for yourself
[BK_] well, what if two people see something different?
[BK_] which they quite often do
[dios_mio] then ask a third
[BK_] and then what?
[dios_mio] well go with the majority
[BK_] why?
[BK_] why not go with the one dissenter?
[dios_mio] because visual defects, hallucinations are rare in population
[BK_] how do you know that?
[dios_mio] from experience
[BK_] and what do you rely upon to evaluate experience?
[dios_mio] ultimately my own judgement
[BK_] do you see the circle yet?
[BK_] your senses
[dios_mio] well what can we do about it?
[BK_] and yes, your own reasoning
[dios_mio] thats the limit of whole capability in this issue
[BK_] so you should accept an arbitrary worldview because you can’t think of anything better?
[@RazorsKiss] reject a self-refuting system which grants no meaning, that’s what we should do.
[BK_] you are providing justification for your premise buy assuming your premise
[BK_] by*
[BK_] your line of reasoning is not reasonable, dios_mio
[dios_mio] well the alternative is skepticism
[dios_mio] not the bible obviously
[BK_] that’s one alternative
[@RazorsKiss] that’s one – but not the only one.
[BK_] and what’s the problem with that alternative?
[BK_] absolute skepticism?
[BK_] the problem is that it refutes itself
[dios_mio] why should the bible be an alternative? it is after somethign we see with our senses too.. and its authors relied on their senses
[BK_] therefore, it cannot *logically* be true
[dios_mio] after all*
[BK_] the problem here is the worldview in question
[BK_] you are approaching the Bible from a defective worldview
[BK_] thus the Bible appears just as worthless as anything else
[@RazorsKiss] which has no grounds for any truth, whatsoever.
[dios_mio] I approach the bible from all I have, my own judgement and reason and senses
[BK_] you will never find a satisfactory *answer* as long as you approach the world from this worldview
[@RazorsKiss] Thus, anything approached from that perspective will have no truth to be found in it.
[BK_] yes, and as long as you approach it from all that *you* have, that is where you will end up
[BK_] skepticism
[dios_mio] there is no other point of view for us humans, obviously
[@RazorsKiss] The problem is your own assumptions, not the Bible.
[BK_] obviously?
[dios_mio] can we transcend our subjective realm?
[BK_] no, we cannot
[BK_] but God does
[@RazorsKiss] Thankfully, we have a God who is transcendent, and communicates truth to us.
[dios_mio] yeah, and we are not God, we are always humans, always limited in our subjective point of view
[BK_] dios_mio: remember, we are comparing *worldviews*
[@RazorsKiss] well, keep relying on that point of view, and it will always fail you.
[BK_] theories of reality and knowledge
[@RazorsKiss] That’s what humans do – fail.
[BK_] you see that, right?
[dios_mio] unless he communicates *directly* with you it is still subject to doubt.. even the direct communication could be doubted for hallucination
[BK_] what if he does communicate directly with you?
[@RazorsKiss] because it’s all about you, assumed from the outset – once again.
[BK_] would that make the difference?
[dios_mio] well he could
[BK_] what if he did?
[BK_] would that make the difference?
[dios_mio] well, it would certainly be very powerful evidence that I could not deny
[dios_mio] and I would go by it
[BK_] don’t appeal to evidence without considering your worldview first
[dios_mio] and as you see, still it is my judgment that guides me
[BK_] remember, you are still operating from a worldview that assumes the autonomy of man in reasoning
[dios_mio] yes
[dios_mio] and there is no other way
[BK_] well *that* is the problem
[BK_] how do you know there is no other way?
[dios_mio] I am always behind my own control terminal
[@RazorsKiss] because you exclude all other ways a priori.
[BK_] you are?
[dios_mio] yes
[BK_] how do you know that?
[dios_mio] because of my experience
[BK_] you *can’t* know that
[BK_] your experience is in doubt, remember?
[dios_mio] I only doubt the external world, not my own experience
[dios_mio] err, not that I am *having* an experience
[dios_mio] or that *I am*
[dios_mio] as in Descartes
[BK_] you should doubt “I am”
[BK_] you can’t even prove that
[dios_mio] well certainly I don’t experience my own self, so yeah, you are right
[@RazorsKiss] Descartes didn’t say a blessed thing with his “I think, therefore I am”
[BK_] Descartes made a huge assumption with that statement
[@RazorsKiss] He might as well have said “I stink, therefore I am” – there’s no direct correlation between the two statements.
[BK_] that logic has metaphysical applicability
[BK_] dios_mio, the problem is with your worldview
[BK_] the problem isn’t with evidence
[dios_mio] but you see, if God communicates me, or I read the Bible, I still can doubt if it is an hallucination or a Deceiving Demon playing with my mind
[BK_] if you continue to evaluate scripture from *your* worldview, yes
[dios_mio] there is no way out of human subjective perspective
[BK_] what I am telling you is that your worldview is wrong
[BK_] how do you know that?
[BK_] you can’t know anything, remember?
[BK_] skepticism
[@RazorsKiss] You doubt that you can doubt, even.
[dios_mio] well go ahead and show me how I can transcend my subjective perspective
[@RazorsKiss] If properly applied.
[@RazorsKiss] You can’t – God can.
[BK_] do you first agree that your worldview doesn’t allow you to do it?
[BK_] would you agree that any worldview that starts with man as the ultimate is doomed?
[dios_mio] Descartes proved God with a weak ontological argument… how do you prove him? oh right, you don’t.. you just say “lets simply accept him, because otherwise we cannot solve our philosophical problems”… not very convincing
[@RazorsKiss] The only way to properly understand anything is if you are changed by God, and have all of your thinking, your life, and your soul changed and renewed by God.
[BK_] Descartes didn’t prove a thing
[dios_mio] BK_, he had an ontological argument for God
[@RazorsKiss] Descartes proved he wasn’t a very deep thinker 😀
[BK_] the fact that he had an argument doesn’t mean it was a sound argument
[BK_] would you agree that any worldview that starts with man as the ultimate is doomed?
[@RazorsKiss] but not under dios’ worldview – he’s unable to prove, or to accept anything.
[dios_mio] BK_, so tell me how we start the worldview with God?
[BK_] would you agree that any worldview that starts with man as the ultimate is doomed?
* BK_ is persistent
[dios_mio] BK_, if you call skepticism “doomed” yeah
[BK_] you don’t? 🙂
[BK_] absolute skepticism is the direct result of a worldview that begins with the subjective
[dios_mio] sop where do you start your worldview?
[BK_] absolute skepticism refutes itself
[BK_] therefore, any worldview starting with the subjective *cannot be true*
[BK_] with God
[@RazorsKiss] God, and His perfect revelation – where it should start, and the only place it CAN start.
[BK_] consider the Biblical worldview *for the sake of argument*, dios_mio
[BK_] for our discussion
[BK_] we have considered yours
[BK_] now consider ours
[dios_mio] if we doubt the external world, and the bible is part of the external world, how can I start from the theology as in the Bible?
[dios_mio] ok go ahead
[@RazorsKiss] that’s the thing – a Christian worldview does not hold to that perspective.
[BK_] if the Bible is true *as we read it*, then God is absolute
[@RazorsKiss] and BK will tell you why 😀
[BK_] if the Bible is true, then God has revealed himself to us
[dios_mio] ok
[BK_] if the Bible is true, we are sinners
[BK_] if the Bible is true, that sin interferes with our ability to reason
[BK_] if the Bible is true, that sin interferes with our ability to be “objective”
[BK_] if the Bible is true, there is one and only one way to know anything at all
[BK_] ~nas prov 1:7
[@Gutenberg^] 12Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction. (NASB)
[BK_] if the Bible is true, what is the first thing we would have to do?
[BK_] fear God
[BK_] ~nas col 2:8
[@Gutenberg^] 12Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (NASB)
[BK_] if the Bible is true, how many “philosophies” are there?
[BK_] just two
[BK_] one that follows Christ, and one that does not
[BK_] if the Bible is true, we must *begin* with God as our ultimate authority
[BK_] because otherwise we can never know anything at all
[BK_] in essence, if we deny God and his revelation to us, we are “fools”
[BK_] that’s the Christian worldview
[dios_mio] right
[BK_] if the Christian worldview is true, there is hope
[BK_] if the non-Christian worldview if true, there is no hope
[BK_] no knowledge
[BK_] no … anything
[dios_mio] agreed
[BK_] ~nas rom 19
[@Gutenberg^] 12Romans 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (NASB)
[BK_] if the Bible is true, God has already revealed himself to us
[BK_] ~nas rom 10:9
[@Gutenberg^] 12Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; (NASB)
[BK_] if the BIble is true, dios_mio, you must confess your sins
[BK_] you must believe in what Christ did on the cross
[BK_] you must confess that Jesus is the Christ – the savior
[BK_] then and only then do you have a worldview that can make sense out of anything at all … even your unbelief
* BK_ prays that God will open your heart to this, diso_mio
[dios_mio] thanks
[@RazorsKiss] ~nas proverbs 21
[@Gutenberg^] 12Proverbs 21 Every man’s way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. (NASB)
[dios_mio] christianity is ancient wisdom, it is not hard to deny it for sure
[BK_] it is more than wisdom
[BK_] it is truth
[BK_] it has to be
[@RazorsKiss] ~nas proverbs 21
[@Gutenberg^] 12Proverbs 21 The king’s heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. (NASB)
[BK_] anytime it is denied, we become “fools”
[dios_mio] even if it was made up, it was made up by men and must contain projections from human nature, and it makes it hard to deny
[BK_] what if it wasn’t made up?
[BK_] what if it has always been?
* BK_ notes that you are now reverting to your worldview
[dios_mio] dude, there is a whole science of higher criticism and documentary hypothesis and such things…
[BK_] the Biblical worldview is that God inspired men to write this truth down
[@RazorsKiss] If it is the only way to any sort of meaning and hope in all the world, and has always been the only way, planned for from the very beginning of creation.
[BK_] dude, that whole science means nothing if you can’t *know* things
[BK_] again, two worldviews
[@RazorsKiss] You cannot know ANYTHING unless this is true.
[@RazorsKiss] Nada.
[BK_] one makes knowledge possible
[BK_] one destroys it
[BK_] there is only one logical choice here
[@RazorsKiss] That’s the problem all men have. Without this, there is no knowledge, no higher criticism, and no hypotheses that make any sense, let alone have any truth.
[dios_mio] I see your point
[@RazorsKiss] It is impossible to believe anything else, and have any meaning or hope.
[dios_mio] and I accept it that christianity makes knowledge and meaning possible, and the alternative point of view makes it impossible
[@RazorsKiss] Nothing else works.
[BK_] the difficulty is that you (and all of us) tend to “slip” back into that self-centered worldview
[@RazorsKiss] the alternative point of view makes *everything* impossible.
[BK_] well, that is saying a lot, dios_mio
[BK_] what you have just “accepted”
[BK_] but there is more that you have to do
[BK_] because it is one thing to accept that Christians are “right”
[BK_] it is another to accept the very source of truth
[BK_] that’s what you must do
[BK_] ~nas john 3
[@Gutenberg^] 12John 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (NASB)
[@RazorsKiss] There is nothing possible, nothing that makes sense, and nothing that has any truth under any other conception of reality. Nothing at all. Christianity is true because everything else is impossible to even hold the concept of “true” as a part of it.
[@RazorsKiss] You cannot even say “this is true” in any other system of thought.
[BK_] in fact, even for your denial of Christianity to make sense, you must accept that Christianity is true
[dios_mio] I dont say you are right.. just that christianity has meaning and hope, and atheism and science ends up in nihilism… thats for sure… but just because we are compelled to accept christianity for such concerns dont make it true.. because it is after all a matter of historical truth…
[@RazorsKiss] Not unless you steal from it to do so – and you are thereby inconsistent.
[BK_] that’s basically what you have done above
[@RazorsKiss] there is no historical truth in any other system.
[BK_] well consider what you have just said
[@RazorsKiss] there is no truth at all.
[BK_] Christianity has meaning and hope
[BK_] atheism and science end up in nihilism
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, there is much doubt about whether patriarchs and prophets existed at all.. including Jesus himself
[@RazorsKiss] “historical truth” has no meaning, unless you believe as a Christian does.
[BK_] dios_mio: what is the conclusion based on?
[BK_] your conclusion of doubt?
[@RazorsKiss] There is much doubt about everything at all, unless Christianity is true.
[BK_] exactly
[BK_] the doubt is based on your *worldview*
[dios_mio] you cannot change what happened in history simply by pondering on epistemological issues… and remember evolution itself is a historical issue
[@RazorsKiss] There is complete and total doubt about every single fact in the entire scope of reality – there is doubt in reality itself.
[@RazorsKiss] You cannot ponder *anything* apart from Christianity’s truth.
[BK_] you cannot say anything about history without a cogent epistemology
[@RazorsKiss] Christianity, as you said, is the only way for “history” to have any meaning.
[dios_mio] ok then we borrow christian epistemology and look at the world, and we see that christianity is false… this is the paradox we are facing
[@RazorsKiss] because it’s the only way to have meaning at all.
[BK_] no you don’t
[BK_] you cannot borrow from Christianity and see that it is false
[dios_mio] of course you can
[BK_] because if it is false, then it won’t provide what is necessary to see it is false
[BK_] of course you can’t
[dios_mio] higher criticism, history of christianity and judaism, and evolution
[BK_] if Christianity is the *necessary* precondition
[@RazorsKiss] you cannot borrow anything from christianity that is true, and truly see it as false.
[@RazorsKiss] You can falsely see all sorts of thing,s if it is corrupted by your own influence.
[BK_] but none of those make sense unless Christianity is true
[BK_] you cannot rely upon a worldview and then logically conclude that worldview is true
[@RazorsKiss] But Christianity is the only way to have anything mean *anything* at all.
[BK_] because then your conclusion that it is true is based on a faulty starting point
[BK_] if Christianity is necessary as a worldview to make sense out of anything, then it is truly NECESSARY
[@RazorsKiss] you can’t pick and choose what you take – or your hybrid system collapses on the points of your own faulty assumptions grafted onto it.
[dios_mio] you cannot prove christianity true simply by some epistemological considerations… thats an insult to human reason… shall we not discuss the secular analysis of history of bible? and of course there is evolution.. you cannot refute it with epistemology, it is an empirical science with loads of evidence
[@RazorsKiss] the things you left, when you chose the things you liked – are what make the rest truly coherent.
[BK_] what is the secular analysis of the Bible assume, dios_mio?
[dios_mio] BK_, I have in mind the documentary hypothesis and higher criticism
[@RazorsKiss] no, we can’t go back there. there’s no meaning to any of it.
[BK_] it assumes we can *know* things, does it not?
[@RazorsKiss] not within the system it assumes.
[dios_mio] BK_, consider it apart from its assumptions..
[BK_] do you *know* that secular analysis of the history of the Bible is true?
[BK_] impossible
[BK_] we are subjective, remember?
[@RazorsKiss] it *steals* from Christianity – but not the *necessary* aspects – which include ALL of Christianity.
[BK_] we must assume *something* at the start
[BK_] we cannot be neutral
[@RazorsKiss] You cannot separate parts of Christianity, and still get truth.
[@RazorsKiss] You simply steal warrant that doesn’t belong to you.
[BK_] you cannot claim to know that the documentary hypothesis is even meaningful unless Christianity is true
[@RazorsKiss] That doesn’t make anything that is formed from that stolen warrant true – the problem lies in what you steal it TO.
[dios_mio] even if the critic of the bible starts from christian assumptions, and they have, they may and did end up in the results that prove christianity a man made religion like any other
[@RazorsKiss] no, they did NOT start from Christian assumptions.
[BK_] no, that is a logically impossible conclusion
[BK_] due to the nature of the claims made by Christianity
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, I thought the German bible criticism of the 18th and 19th century started as a Christian science
[@RazorsKiss] textual criticism is not higher criticism.
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, they laid out the way for higher criticism
[@RazorsKiss] textual criticism is a valid examination of the text.
[BK_] dios_mio: at this point, all such critiques are meaningless without a worldview that makes knowledge possible
[@RazorsKiss] higher criticism is the attempt to judge the text by an arbitrary higher standard.
[BK_] if Christianity is the only worldview that makes knowledge possible, then it must be true
[BK_] end of story
[@RazorsKiss] But yes, all of that has NO POINT if you do not accept ALL of Christianity.
[@RazorsKiss] because NONE OF IT can be true, if it says Christianity is false.
[BK_] look, here it is as a syllogism
[BK_] a) In order to know that A is true, Christianity must be true
[BK_] b) A is true
[BK_] c) Therefore, Christianity is true
[BK_] you already gave us “a)” above earlier in this discussion
[dios_mio] yeah, how do we know a) is true without knowing Christianity is true? your argument is circular
[BK_] “dios_mio: and I accept it that christianity makes knowledge and meaning possible, and the alternative point of view makes it impossible”
[@RazorsKiss] No, it’s axiomatic.
[BK_] because of the impossibility of the contrary
[@RazorsKiss] You cannot have true knowledge apart from Christianity.
[BK_] because anytime you deny it, you destroy knowledge and meaning
[@RazorsKiss] The Christianity revealed in Scripture, by God.
[BK_] you recognized this above … “dios_mio: and I accept it that christianity makes knowledge and meaning possible, and the alternative point of view makes it impossible”
[dios_mio] maybe thats a paradox we are doomed to be have
[BK_] there is no paradox
[dios_mio] well sure
[@RazorsKiss] there is simply truth.
[BK_] if you deny Christianity, you cannot make anything meaningful
[dios_mio] no doubt
[@RazorsKiss] the truth is: we require God, who is truth, to have a contingent knowledge of truth
[BK_] are you saying that, right here and now, you choose to deny Christianity?
[@RazorsKiss] our knowledge of truth is contingent upon God, who is intrinsically “truth”.
[BK_] even considering the fact that the result is that you cannot make anything meaningful or know anything at all??
[@RazorsKiss] There is no truth to be known apart from God, and no other way to know truth, except by the revelation of God.
[BK_] the choice is in front of you, dios_mio
[dios_mio] you are asking me to ignore the whole science of biology and secular history of christianity
[@RazorsKiss] ~nas john 14:6
[@Gutenberg^] 12John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (NASB)
[BK_] what meaning does it have?
[@RazorsKiss] We are asking you to give up meaninglessness, death, and ignorance for the only truth that can, or will ever, exist.
[dios_mio] BK_, that is the paradox we are facing
[BK_] why are you clinging to science and biology?
[@RazorsKiss] Truth only has one source.
[BK_] not we, you
[@RazorsKiss] God.
[BK_] why do you cling to science and biology, dios_mio?
[BK_] they are meaningless
[dios_mio] BK_, we are clinging to it because it is based in study and experience… it is not just speculation or myth
[@RazorsKiss] There is no paradox. You are clinging to meaninglessness, and that is the only problem.
[BK_] but that study is meaningless, dios_mio
[@RazorsKiss] All based on what, dios?
[BK_] your experience is in doubt
[@RazorsKiss] Meaninglessness.
[BK_] it is, in fact, speculation
[BK_] and myth
[BK_] “dios_mio: and I accept it that christianity makes knowledge and meaning possible, and the alternative point of view makes it impossible”
[dios_mio] the study becomes meaningless after considering the implications of its findings
[@RazorsKiss] They have no valid, truth-bearing experience.
[BK_] thereby rendering the study meaningless
[@RazorsKiss] Let me make a point that might help.
[BK_] the conclusion refutes the process used to reach the conclusion
[BK_] I have to leave in a few minutes
[@RazorsKiss] The choice you’re facing is simple.
[dios_mio] well yeah.. this is the paradoxical nature of our existence..
[BK_] go ahead, RK
[@RazorsKiss] Do you trust people you’ve already told us have no meaning, and no way to explain why what they say is true, what they say is true, and how they can claim it is true
[@RazorsKiss] ie: scientists
[@RazorsKiss] Or, do you trust the only possible source of truth, meaning, hope, and salvation?
[dios_mio] RazorsKiss, their findings are based on sound evidence and study of many years
[@RazorsKiss] It’s very simple.
[@RazorsKiss] All of which HAS NO MEANING, by your OWN admission.
[dios_mio] true
[@RazorsKiss] Nothing.
[@RazorsKiss] It is POINTLESS.
[@RazorsKiss] They can say whatever they want – you are trusting blindly in blind guides
[dios_mio] I have to ponder about this subject more… but now I have to leave, its been a great discussion thanks both of you
[@RazorsKiss] they are blind, they lead the blind, and they will both fall into a pit of nihilism, with no way to even find a way out, even if they could recognize it.
[dios_mio] we continue another time ok?
[BK_] thank you dios_mio for listening
[BK_] yes, definitely
[dios_mio] thank you
[BK_] we are praying for you
[BK_] 🙂
[@RazorsKiss] Sure – but remember – there is only One truth, and one way to truth.
[dios_mio] ok thanks
[@RazorsKiss] We’ll be praying – and remember dios
[dios_mio] yeah
[@RazorsKiss] I told I’d be praying for you over a year ago
[@RazorsKiss] I have been 😀
[dios_mio] heh yeah
[dios_mio] thanks man
[@RazorsKiss] There are no accidents in God’s world.
[dios_mio] 🙂
[@RazorsKiss] Only His truth 😀
[@RazorsKiss] Come back.
[dios_mio] yes maybe
[dios_mio] ok ttyl
* dios_mio (test@88.243.102.125) Quit

I’m a bit disappointed, I confess, because the person we talked to in this post has since come back and is debating along the same lines again. I’ll post that conversation next, but I’d like to post this to remind him where he was, and what he’s forgotten. I’m still praying for him – and I hope you will do.

[RazorsKiss] jsrz3away: still want to debate?
* jsrz3away is now known as jsrz3
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I am now — What’s up?
[RazorsKiss] Howdy.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Howdy — Are we gonna fight now?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) If we are, what are those “rules” again?
[RazorsKiss] How would you like to do this? I was thinking something a bit more structured, instead of “toss objections”, as I was saying previously.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I don’t think we need no stinkin’ rules though — Just be honest and you and I will both be fine
[RazorsKiss] Well, here was what I was thinking – I would _prefer_ a debate with a moderator – but barring that, how about we trade off questions, and get a max of 5 posts apiece to answer, and 2 to respond to the other’s answer.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No rules — If we are going to have a discussion (or, a “debate,” if you prefer to call it that), then let’s do it by being cordial to one another and responding to the question asked and not seeking opportunities to evade the questions asked — Ok?
[RazorsKiss] ie: you ask a questions – I have 5 lines to answer – you get two to respond – and vice versa.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) That sounds like one of these rules for which I don’t feel any need — Let the people here moderate, but it’s you and me — Let’s do this!
[RazorsKiss] I’m perfectly willing to answer anything 😀
[RazorsKiss] Whether you like the answer is another thing 😀
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) That would be another one of those things called “rules” that I believe I just told you I’m not in any mood to have in place when all we are doing here is having a Bible discussion
[RazorsKiss] So – how does the 1-post question, 5-line answer, 2 line response sound?
[RazorsKiss] Because I’d like us to have equal say, and because you take a long time to answer.
[RazorsKiss] I will beat you in volume. I type faster.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I cannot imagine Jesus being asked by anyone to agree to rules before he launched one of his preaching campaigns or engaged anyone in a serious Bible-related discussion, despite the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and all
[RazorsKiss] Ok, I tried.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: proposition to follow
[RazorsKiss] “Is Christ the eternal Creator God, 2nd person of the Trinity?” Yes, or no.
[jsrz3] (Raz_Away) No, let’s start with the first one: Provide the book, chapter and verse in Scripture where it says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity?
[jsrz3] (Raz_Away) No, he isn’t
[jsrz3] (Raz_Away) Next question, please
[jsrz3] (Raz_Away) I’ll wait
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: answer – There is no single book, chapter, or verse that explicitly defines the doctrine of the Trinity.
[RazorsKiss] rephrase: no single verse that does so. John an several other books can give a cohesive account be themselves.
[RazorsKiss] *by
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: My question for you – Who is Jesus Christ?
[jsrz3] (Raz_Away) Thanks for saying this — So you have decided from reading the Holy Bible, or certain verses in the Holy Bible, that Jesus is the second Person of the Holy Trinity? Is this what you are saying here?
[RazorsKiss] my question, I answered yours – I’ll answer that next, thanks.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Sorry about using your other nick — Who is Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God’s firstborn son, God’s only begotten Son, the man who died on Calvary for the sins of redeemable mankind and was crowned by God with glory and honor and immortality and incorruptibility and who became our Lord and Christ

[RazorsKiss] Doxa isn’t my other nick.
[RazorsKiss] thank you for your answer.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Christ is revealed as the second person of the Trinity by multiple Scripture verses, correct.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: my next question – Do you agree with the Jehovah’s Witnesses teaching that Christ is (or was) the Archangel Michael?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Yeah, Jesus Christ probably was the Archangel Michael in his prehuman existence before God transferred his life to the womb of His human mother, Mary, and He came to be born and He came to be called “Jesus”
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Next question
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Thank you for your answer.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: your turn.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Sure, np
[RazorsKiss] 😀
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Ok, my question is based on what the apostle John writes about Jesus Christ at Revelation 3:14
[jsrz3] ?kjv rev 3 14
[@pete-] Rev3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)
[RazorsKiss] Yes?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) According to what we read at Revelation 3:14, did Jesus Christ have a beginning? (Please don’t look at John 1:1, for that would be cheating)
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) According to what we read at Revelation 3:14, did Jesus Christ have a creator? Yes or no? (Please don’t peek at Proverbs 8:22, for that, too, would be cheating)
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Scripture is capable of being interpreted by other Scripture, of course, and I reserve my right to interpret by it at any time. Howev,er the answer is simple: the word used for “beginning” in the translation you cited is “arche” in the Koine. This word is defined as “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause”. No, Christ did not have a beginning.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: In fact, the verse is explicitly stating that Christ is the creator of all things.
[RazorsKiss] My question.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Who is the Word in John 1:1?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) According to what we read at Revelation 3:14, when does it say that Jesus Christ was created? (Please don’t peek at Micah 5:2, which would be cheating)
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: my question.
[RazorsKiss] I will answer yours next though, thank you.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Let’s review: Question #1 — According to what we read at Revelation 3:14, did Jesus Christ have a beginning? — Your answer is that Jesus didn’t have a beginning — Ok
[RazorsKiss] Actually, my answer was that the verse actually states that He was the Creator.
[RazorsKiss] You have a question waiting for you.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Who is the Word in John 1:1?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Question #2 — According to what we read at Revelation 3:14, did Jesus Christ have a creator? Yes or no? — You decided to skip this question and not answer it
[RazorsKiss] I will get to your follow up in a moment.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: because you didn’t answer mine in turn.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Question #3 — According to what we read at Revelation 3:14, when does it say that Jesus Christ was created? — This, too, is a question you decided to skip and elected not to answer — ok
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: that’s two asked, with no answer – I’ll get to them in turn, thank you.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) So wait: You get to ask me more questions and you only have to answer one of the three questions I asked you about Revelation 3:14? That seems a bit unfair, but ok
[RazorsKiss] I’d like you to answer my question before I answer any more, please.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: it’s my turn to ask.
[RazorsKiss] or would you like me to ask two more to make it even?
[PatrickSD] it is razors turn
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Sure, you’re right — My bad — It is your turn to ask me more questions — Got it — Go!
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Who is the Word in John 1:1?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) The Word in John 1:1 is the Lord Jesus Christ
[RazorsKiss] Thank you for your answer 😀
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: according to revelation 3:14, Christ was not created – He is the Creator.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Does this mean you are going to answer at least one of the two questions of mine I asked you related to Revelation 3:14 that you elected to skip and not answer now?
[PatrickSD] ^
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: that is in response to #2
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Christ did not have a creator.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Yes, it is and I have so noted — What about Question #3?
[RazorsKiss] ready for another, jsr? I’ll get to your #3 next.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I’m ready — yes
[RazorsKiss] Okay.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: next question – In John 3, it is said of this Word, who we previously defined in verse 1; “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” – Would this not mean that Christ is, in fact, the Creator?
[RazorsKiss] *John 1:3 – correction
[RazorsKiss] *John 1:3 – correction
[RazorsKiss] ?kjv john 1:3
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No, this would mean that the Word Jesus (Jesus Christ) was involved in the creation of everything visible and invisible, but not that He alone created all things independent of his Father since it is God that is in possession of all of the power
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: thank you for your answer.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) It is God’s holy spirit that creates, which spirit originates with God and not Jesus
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) What is your answer to my Question #3?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: to answer your #3 question: Revelation 3:14 says nothign about when Christ was created, it does not say that He was created at all, least of all “when”. The greek, as I said, is “arche” – which means “origin of, or cause of”.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: it is easily misinterepreted as “beginning”, not “cause” and the kjv has it as such, rendered in English.
[RazorsKiss] My question, it seems.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: next question – did I say that the Word created anything independent of the Father?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) So that’s your answer? That when John wrote about Jesus being “the beginning of the creation of God” that John was referring to something /other than/ the fact that Jesus is a “creation,” someone that had a “beginning” and that “God” created him? Your answer is that Revelation 3:14 “does not say that Jesus was created at all”? That’s it?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: my question, but I will answer in a moment, thank you 😀
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: thank you for giving me the extra time to prepare the answers, though 😀
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: next question – did I say that the Word created anything independent of the Father?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No, you didn’t say that the Word created anything independent of the Father — I believe it was /I/ who made this statement — Is there a problem?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: thank you for your answer.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Is there a problem?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) If not, here’s my next question:
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: yes, my answer is that the word mistranslated as “beginning” in the KJV actually means “origin of, or cause of”. That is a sufficient answer, and easily verifiable by a consultation with a greek concordance/lexicon.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: it’s my turn.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) This question is based on what the apostle Paul wrote at Colossians 1:15 about Jesus Christ
[jsrz3] ?kjv col 1 15
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Question #4 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, was Jesus Christ born? Yes or no?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Question #5 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, of whom does Paul say that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn”?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: my answer, since you insist on jumping your turn, is that it depends on what is meant by “born”.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Question #6 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, if Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature,” is it not fair to conclude that Jesus was created by someone? Yes or no?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: for the next one you insist on skipping ahead for, the answer is that the firstborn is God made flesh, thus born – and first by athority, not temporality.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No, I don’t insist on jumping my “turn” — I just want to get this discussion moving and I don’t think it’s moving fast enough
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No, no — Wait — “God made flesh”? Where in John 1:1 or John 1:3 or Colossians 1:15 or Revelation 3:14 did we read “God made flesh”?
[PatrickSD] out of turn
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: for the third you you insist on skipping ahead for, the answer relies on your preconception of the nature of Christ, in it’s entirety. Seen in a concistent manner, Christ is the eternal God, amde flesh, and the first born in authority.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Do you deny that verse is in Scripture?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Are we having a scriptural discussion where we use book, chapter and verse to prove that what we are saying is supported by Scripture or some free-for-all?
[RazorsKiss] As I said in an earlier answer, I reserve the ability to use any scripture, in any answer.
[RazorsKiss] If you weren’t reading what I said, you should have brought it up then.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: in that case, please offer me book, chapter, verse for your contention that Christ is the archangel Michael.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Have you used “any scripture” at all in any of your answers /besides/ the two scriptures I mentioned, namely, John 1:1 and John 1:3? Did I perhaps miss any others?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: I didn’t need to, as they all relied on simpel misinterpretations of simple terms.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: are you interested in a discussion, or in a monologue?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: As i said, if it’s a speed battle, I’m a much faster typist, and you don’t read very quickly.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: thus, it would be in your best interest to preserve the format we’ve been using.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: further, you owe me three answers.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: anythign else you’d like to bring up, while you’re trying to ride the objection-fgo-round, or would you like to stop and go back to the original format?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: it was working just fine, until you got upset.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: since it’s been a few minutes since you last typed, I’ll assuem you need a break.
06* RazorsKiss will take a 5 minute recess himself.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: be back in a minute.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: please peruse my earlier questions.
[PatrickSD] he owes you 3 right?
[RazorsKiss] let’s say two.
[PatrickSD] i was counting
[fjmatt] curlyq, your ability to judge others is quite impressive… now please shut up.
[PatrickSD] u sure?
[PatrickSD] i could have sworn i saw 3
06* RazorsKiss shrugs. I’m off for a bit, anyway.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) At Daniel 10:13, it is Michael, described as “one of the chief princes,” that comes to the aid of Daniel, and at Daniel 12:1, it is Michael, “the great prince,” that will “stand up” for God’s people, and at Jude 1:9, it is Michael, who is described by Jude as “the archangel” that contends with the devil in disputing over Moses’ body, who tells the devil, that the Lord God rebuke him
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: thank you for your answer. I’ll be back momentarily.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) When did I ever get upset? I can assure you my blood pressure is just as calm and steady as it was when we began
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) As to the time it takes for me to answer any of the questions you might ask, it takes time to find the scriptural citations since I know the book, and maybe even the chapter, where to find them, but not necessarily the specific verse
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) What “earlier questions”? I’ve moved on
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: my next question – Wasn’t your objection earlier that a single verse should be used to support a doctrinal stance?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) How do you get to go now? Do you not intend to answer my questions?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: you’ve asked 3 consecutive, which i answered.
[RazorsKiss] I, in fact said that I wouldn’t hold you to more than two.
[RazorsKiss] so, that was the second.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I asked you this one — Question #4 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, was Jesus Christ born? Yes or no? Your answer was “that it depends on what is meant by “born'”
[RazorsKiss] yes, that was my answer.
[RazorsKiss] which would imply that I intend to ask you that later on.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: I answered all of your questions in quick succession, as a cohesive whole.
[PatrickSD] yes he did^
[RazorsKiss] and the answers for them all, as the questions were obviously intended, were meant to hang together, not separately.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) What does your answer to my Question #4 supposed to mean? You were “born,” which means at one point you didn’t exist — My question to you was this: “According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, was Jesus Christ /born/? Yes or no? Try again
[RazorsKiss] I don’t answer complex questions with a simple answer.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Well, I didn’t understand your answer to Question #4 and I need to go back and see how to responded to my Questions #5 and #6
[RazorsKiss] that’s a cheap debating trick, and I ignore it when it occurs.
[RazorsKiss] be my guest 😀
[RazorsKiss] when you return, my second, compared to your three, is waiting 😀
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) What does your answer to my Question #4 mean? Are you telling me that you do not know what the English word “born” means? Are you serious?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: is that another question?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: it seems to me you want to ask all the questions, whenever you can.
[PatrickSD] You should stick to the format JSRZ3
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: further, any english word has multipel meanings and definitins, depending on context.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) It’s a “cheap debating trick” that you use to evade and avoid answering someone’s question that you do not wish or choose to answer, so you say things like “that depends upon what the meaning of a particular word is”? Is this the “trick” that you often employ under such circumstances?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: demanding simple answers to complex questions is a cheap debating trick.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: for instance:
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No, I want you to answer Question #4 so that a five-year-old would be able to understand your answer — I have numbered my questions that I might reference them when need be — What is your answer to my Question #4? Is it Yes or No?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: 5-year olds don’t typically debate the trinity.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, was Jesus Christ /born/? Yes or no?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: what bearing does the answer to your other two questiosn have on the concept of “born”?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Please answer the question: According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, was Jesus Christ /born/? Yes or no?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: define “born”, as used in colossians 1:15
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: here is a clarification of your question that might make this relevant to you.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: Does colossians 1:15 state that Christ was the first human ever physically born?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: to take the word “firstborn” as you seem to want to take it would necessitate this understanding of colossians 1:15
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: that Christ was the first huamn being ever born on this planet.
[RazorsKiss] *human
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) No, Colossians 1:15 doesn’t speak to humans at all, but what about my Question #4? Yes or no?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: then what is the defintion of “firstborn”, as used in Col 1:15?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: given your definition of Christ you gave earlier, your defintion of “firstborn” is going to have bearing on my answer, in your eyes.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: thus, i want to now what you are defining “firstborn” as.
[RazorsKiss] *know
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) So according to what we read at Colossians 1:15, you are saying that if the word “firstborn” means what we know the word “firstborn” means in the English language, that Jesus Christ was born? Is this what you are saying?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: 1) It wasn’t written in English. 2) the meaning you’re assigning to it is unclear and 3) you asked that with a purpose in mind of which I’m very aware.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: 4) firstborn has a specific meaning in scripture.
[RazorsKiss] (apart from the physical meaning)
[RazorsKiss] so, once again – Christ is is, indeed, the “firstborn” of all creation. What do you define that as, before I say “yes/no” to what you are defining.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) See how the word “firstborn” is used in the Bible at Exodus 12:29 with reference to humans man and animals, to Pharaoh’s “firstborn” and the “firstborn” of cattle, and this is what I mean when I ask you what according to what we read at Colossians 1:15, if Jesus Christ was “born” — Was Jesus Christ born?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) See how the word “firstborn” is used in the Bible at Exodus 12:29 with reference to humans man and animals, to Pharaoh’s “firstborn” and the “firstborn” of cattle, and this is what I mean when I ask you what according to what we read at Colossians 1:15, if Jesus Christ was “born” — Was Jesus Christ born? Yes or no?
[jsrz3] ?kjv exo 12 29
[@pete-] Exo12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. (KJV)
[Nomos] Ricco, good point. :]
[RazorsKiss] Yes, in that sense, Christ was “born” – however, that is not the sense used in Col 1:15.
[RazorsKiss] Now, I’d like to ask a question, since you’ve been so kind as to ask them all recently?
[RazorsKiss] and I’ve actually answered the ones you’ve asked?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: my next question – Wasn’t your objection earlier that a single verse should be used to support a doctrinal stance?
[RazorsKiss] ie: for the trinity?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I think I’m going to wait until you answer my Question #4, k?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: you do know that you’ve asked like 8-9 questiosn without answering one yourself?
[RazorsKiss] and I’ve answeerd them all?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) Yes, I’m sure you were good with math when you were in school — I’ve asked you only six questions and numbered each of them
[RazorsKiss] I’ve disagreed with practically every answer you’ve given me, as well – but I’m not kicking my heels every time one of them disagrees with me.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: maybe you’re used to doing all the objections?
[RazorsKiss] how about you just admit I answered your #4.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) This isn’t about you agreeing or disagreeing with my answers — It’s about responding to the questions asked, which you have failed to do, for you would rather ask me other questions instead of answer the ones put to you by me
[RazorsKiss] Question #4 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, was Jesus Christ born? Yes or no?
[RazorsKiss] Question #5 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, of whom does Paul say that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn”?
[RazorsKiss] Question #6 — According to what we read at Colossians 1:15, if Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature,” is it not fair to conclude that Jesus was created by someone? Yes or no?
[RazorsKiss] A4 – jsrz3: my answer, since you insist on jumping your turn, is that it depends on what is meant by “born”.
[RazorsKiss] A5 – the answer is that the firstborn is God made flesh, thus born – and first by authority, not temporality.
[RazorsKiss] A6 – the answer relies on your preconception of the nature of Christ, in it’s entirety. Seen in a consistent manner, Christ is the eternal God, made flesh, and the first born in authority.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) It doesn’t matter to me whether you agree or disagree with what I believe, because you may not believe what I believe, especially if you believe, as you have already told me, that Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Holy Trinity, but cannot provide a /single/ scriptural citation — book, chapter and verse — that supports your statement of belief
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: you haven’t asked me for any.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: the only thing you asked me was for a single verse that taught the Trinity.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: I answered – and followups would be much more profitable, instead of insisting I answer how you want me to answer.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) I think we’re done if you are going to play games about the meaning of words, like you did when we were referring to Hebrews 9:27 and you were then adding the word “all” to “men” and coming up with “all men” in this verse when the word “all” isn’t used in this verse, so “born” and “firstborn” mean what they mean in the English language
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: I believe it’s quite obvious that you aren’t interested in answering questions, just asking them, if that’s what you mean.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: can you give me a single verse, as I asked earlier, that says Michael is Christ?
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: you gave me _3_, at once, none of which contained an indentification of Christ with Michael – yet screamed bloody murder when I used a single reference from John 1 in a reply earlier.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: let me ask you – is that consistent?
[Nomos] jsrz3, is Jesus a god like the judges are referred to as gods (baals), or is he god in a different way?
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) As a matter of fact, yes, I /do/ believe in multiple gods, since Scripture teaches that Jesus did exist “in the form of God” and was in the likeness of God before he was changed and came to exist “in the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:5-7)
* PipeTobacco (~pipe@adsl-75-21-169-37.dsl.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #scripture
[PipeTobacco] yyyyo
[WendyKat] tom cruise says he can save wreck victems better than an emt
[jsrz3] ?kjv phl 2 5 7
[@pete-] Phi2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (KJV)
[@pete-] Phi2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (KJV)
[@pete-] Phi2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (KJV)
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) This means that in His prehuman existence, Jesus was a God just like all of the angels of God are themselves gods, but when Jesus came to earth, He wasn’t an incarnate man, like the many angels that materialized on earth with human bodies like the three that visited Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, but, as Philippians 2:7 states, was a “in fashion as a man”
[jsrz3] ?kjv phl 2 7
[@pete-] Phi2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (KJV)
[jsrz3] ?kjv phl 2 8
[@pete-] Phi2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (KJV)
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: that’s not a single verse.
[jsrz3] (RazorsKiss) This means that in His prehuman existence, Jesus was a God just like all of the angels of God are themselves gods, but when Jesus came to earth, He wasn’t an incarnate man, like the many angels that materialized on earth with human bodies like the three that visited Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, but, as **Philippians 2:8** states, was a “in fashion as a man”
[RazorsKiss] you’re pulling verses in from all over 😀
[RazorsKiss] isn’t that what you were annoyed at me about earlier?
[RazorsKiss] referencing verses elsewhere?
[RazorsKiss] can’t you prove your case from one verse, as you demanded i do?
[RazorsKiss] I’ve seen multiple verses, from a wide variety of contexts.
[RazorsKiss] It really was in your best interest to stick to the format.
[RazorsKiss] Doing it this way, I can ask/answer 3x as many questions as you can in the same amount of time – which was why I was using it.
[RazorsKiss] jsrz3: for _your_ benefit.
[RazorsKiss] NOT mine.
[RazorsKiss] further, I was attempting to keep you from going off on unrelated tangents – as you proceeded to do.
[RazorsKiss] as well as contradict yourself – which you did.
[RazorsKiss] anyway, I’m sorry it ended up this way – but that was why I wanted to stick to a format.
[RazorsKiss] because if you don’t – one party gets out-typed.
[RazorsKiss] have a good night – sorry about the ending.
[RazorsKiss] hope that was instructive or helpful to someone in here 😀

The following discussion was from earlier this afternoon, and I believe clearly shows the common bankruptcy found in Islamic apologists – they can’t defend their own text, and they won’t answer questions. I invite you to examine the conversation and see for yourself.

[RazorsKiss] Surah 53:36 Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses- (YUS)
[RazorsKiss] Surah 53:37 And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?- (YUS)
[RazorsKiss] Surah 53:38 Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another; (YUS)
[RazorsKiss] .kjv gal 6:2
[Bible] Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. (King James Version)
[RazorsKiss] So, beyinsiz – why is your Qu’ran contradicting Scripture?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss it doesn’t. It corrects the contradictions. That’s it.
[RazorsKiss] Surah 3:84 Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between on e and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).”
[RazorsKiss] The Books?
[RazorsKiss] Seems to me that’s one of the Books spoken on in the Qu’Ran.
[RazorsKiss] *of in
[RazorsKiss] Why does your Qu’Ran contradict it?
[RazorsKiss] .kjv exo 6:6
[Bible] Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgements: (King James Version)
[beyinsiz] aligning*
[RazorsKiss] Seems as if God himself does the same.
[Delano] Muslims and Christians who dispute one another’s holy books only “prove” that the other doesn’t apply the same critical thinking to their own scriptures as they do to their opponent’s
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss A contradiction only happens with something that has COHERENCE. It’s true that the content of the bible is of full errors, historical information.
[RazorsKiss] Delano: One says the other book is inspired, yet contradicts it.
[RazorsKiss] That’s telling, is it not?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss how many tellings in the bible are existing ?
[Delano] Oh, very much :o)
[RazorsKiss] Paul tells the Galatians to do something the Qu’Ran forbids.
[beyinsiz] if there are 60 bibles available, it’s likely that quran would treat them each as differently ?
[RazorsKiss] Look at the greek, and then look at your arabic.
[RazorsKiss] compare the two, see if they mean the same thing.
[Delano] Er,
[Delano] He couldn’t be able to anyway
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why would something that Paul told would be a divine commandment. Paul cannot make any divine decision, He is not a prophet.
[RazorsKiss] Galatians 6:2 allhlwn ta barh bastazete kai outws anaplhrwsete ton nomon tou xristou (GRK)
[beyinsiz] He wasn’t even an apostle of Jesus
[Delano] The Qur’an is written in a classical form of Arabic that modern Arabs do not understand
[Delano] Just like modern English speakers do not understand Anglo-Saxon
[RazorsKiss] I know several Christians who read arabic just fine.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Galatians is an epistle that he wrote up. It’s not the word of God, nor that of Jesus. Come up with something else
[RazorsKiss] As well as Koine.
[Delano] Modern, yes
[Delano] Classical Arabic is different :o)
[RazorsKiss] No, Quranic.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss yes I can read classical arabic, koine greek, latin , hebrew with diacriticals.
[Delano] Same with Greek… modern is different to Koine and Attic
[RazorsKiss] Expressly for the purpose of studying Quranic textual transmission.
[Delano] Although Attic was not used in the NT
[RazorsKiss] Quranic Arabic, and Koine.
[Delano] beyinsiz, impressive
[beyinsiz] what textual transmission ? there has only been 1 manuscript and the bible had like 300 according to the decree at the Nicea Council.
[Delano] beyinsiz, which Latin? Classic or Old Church?
[RazorsKiss] Not according to the Uthmanic revision, no there hasn’t.
[beyinsiz] Delano Clasical, the church doesn’t alter remarkably except the the pronounciation. the grammar is the same.
[Delano] beyinsiz, and more vocabularly
[Delano] Biblical-based vocabulary
[RazorsKiss] Ibn Masud’s version is the foundation for the modern-day Sunni-Shi’ite division.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss yes Uthman was a companion of Prophet unlike Paul wasn’t of Jesus
[RazorsKiss] Same generation, and was indeed an apostle – though one born late.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss that’s inaccurate and non sense to the extent of textual transmission claim. If you claim there is any other version of the quran, can you please show it ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss it still doesn’t make him an apostle
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TEUMkkSHek
[beyinsiz] the bible says they were 12 you say something else
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I dont want a youtube video. show me a manuscript
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – yes it does – and was recognized as one by the other apostles – the apostle to the gentiles, as we both are.
[beyinsiz] you make it up you find one !
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss by no means it doesn’t. There is no one verse that Paul is regarded as an apostle.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – the video is one by Dr. James White.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Why would I belive in him ? It’s you who claim that there is another shii quran and I am asking you to show it up !
[RazorsKiss] Concerning the Uthmanic revision, and Ibn Masud’s manuscript he refused to give up.
[RazorsKiss] and, by certain traditions, was beaten for until he died.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss It doesn’t make any sense when you just speculate about the duplication of a text once you dont provide any clear evidence and yet I can show you a dozen for the bible ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss where are the manuscripts you claim for transmissions ? where are they ?
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1713
[beyinsiz] I see no manuscript differentiation on this page.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss either you show me a manuscript that DIFFERS from the one we have today
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – no manuscript variations exist in scripture that affect any major dotrine.
[Bonz] http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00.html QURAN NOT GIVEN TO MUHAMMED
[Bonz] But Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: sort of hard, since uthman burned them all, isn’t it?
[RazorsKiss] almost like islam had something to hide.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you even know that not on the basis of quran but some narrations ? Do you believe in the muslim narrations ? are you muslim yourself ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz Quran was changed several times
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss answer my question Do you believe in islamic narrations ?
[RazorsKiss] Not to mention the fact that the textual history of Islam is one of protection and central authoritative copying, past that date
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss answer my question Do you believe in islamic narrations ?
[RazorsKiss] and before that, all variatiosn were burned, so as to erase any variants.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You quoted an historical even on the basis of islamic narrations namely hadith. Do you believe in them to be true ?
[beyinsiz] event *
[beyinsiz] He cant answer the question
[RazorsKiss] Of course not, they contradict Scripture.
[RazorsKiss] I was finishing my own point, thanks 😀
[RazorsKiss] Care to respond to my last ones?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then how come you claimed that Uthman burned them from your point of view ???????????????????
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You first must justify the ground of your knowledge if you don’t believe what you claim, why should I take care to answer ?
[RazorsKiss] Why do you claim that Paul wasn’t an apostle, when your Quran commands you to consider Scripture as from Allah?
[RazorsKiss] Scripture says otherwise.
[beyinsiz] Inge then what part does he like to include and what others he likes to exclude ? what is the standart for that ? 🙂
[Bonz] beyinsiz He can use any standard he wants to.
[Inge] beyinsiz: *shrug* 🙂
[RazorsKiss] I don’t believe that they are spiritual truth – but I can see historical accounts.
[Bonz] beyinsiz And you have to defend against ANY standard
[Colin^] Bonz this is way over your head. I suggest you sit it out. :o)
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss There is no such verse that would make someone assume that Paul was an apostle. It’s the epistles he wrote which are not divinely revealed. There are many christian epistles in that time
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You couldn’t answer a simple question I asked. Yet you BASED YOUR CLAIM on that historical event. Your mask FELL DOWN
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] next question
[RazorsKiss] *being mentioned
[Bonz] beyinsiz You lose.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You based your opinion on the fact that you assumed the narration to be true and now you can’t answer. Did you lie there ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz The Quran is not inspired. Muhammed wasn’t a prophet of Jesu
[RazorsKiss] I don’t consider the Hadith to be a true reflection of spiritual things, no.
[beyinsiz] Did you lie when you were purposefully claimed that Uthman burned them and yet you didn’t take it a granted fact ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz He didn’t asume it to be true
[beyinsiz] This is what your faith could be like !
[RazorsKiss] I do consider them useful for an examination of the historical situation.
[beyinsiz] Bonz then why did he say he did burn it ?
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] he didn’t say he MAY HAVE burnt
[Inge] Bonz: are you arguing *for* a Christian?
* Inge takes Bonz’ temperature and calls 911
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why would I answer your question and waste my time to discuss with you brother? You lied, why would I consider it worthwhile ?
[RazorsKiss] Uthman burnt every variant of the Quran, save Ibn Masud’s
[Delano] Inge, sometimes a man must choose the lesser of the two evils.
[beyinsiz] You have to explain to me something first. I will not just skip it.
[RazorsKiss] and Ibn Masud died for withholding it.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Do you believe this to be true, and considering it a prophetical narration ?
[Bonz] Inge Nope, against a Muslim. beyinsiz wants to have his cake and eat it as well.
[beyinsiz] say yes or no
[beyinsiz] :DDDDD
[RazorsKiss] I don’t consider a proven false prophet to be true in any way, no.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then why did you claim that to be true ????????
[beyinsiz] then you lied !
[beyinsiz] you busted
[Delano] Inge, not if they support the bigger evil ;o)
[RazorsKiss] I do, however, think the Hadith literature is an interesting study in history.
[Colin^] beyinsiz is busted, he doesn’t obey the Quran
[Colin^] :o(
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you lost my friend. It’s your hatred, illogical faulty manner that gave you away.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[Bonz] beyinsiz It’s not HIS fault that your holy books are wrong
[Delano] Well, to his RazorsKiss, I don’t think RazorsKiss is a hateful fellow
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss sorry I don’t regard to discuss with some person who even lies in the name of his argument (?).
[Delano] Er
[Bonz] beyinsiz YOU are the illogical one
[Delano] Well, to his defense, I don’t think RazorsKiss is a hateful fellow
[Colin^] beyinsiz isn’t a Submitter…merely a beliver,shame face belong to him
[beyinsiz] everbody call in witness to what this man had done to himself.
[beyinsiz] Colin^ why ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz He won. You lost.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] Bonz if yo u say so.
[Delano] beyinsiz, in fact, RazorsKiss has been a lot more civil to you than a lot of other Christians here would have been :o)
[RazorsKiss] All you’re doing is spinning around like a top, sir.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You first explain as to why you used a prophetical narration as to be historically true when you claimed the person is a false prophet and thus unreliable ??
[RazorsKiss] I consider Mohammed a false prophet, yes.
[beyinsiz] Because it is our first topic to be sort out and without first solving it , it is useless and pointless to skip the other. Why would I do that ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then why did you quote the historical event to be true ?
[RazorsKiss] I don’t even think the authors of the Hadith even consider a mention as such, at all.
[Bonz] beyinsiz Your holy books are wrong. He doesn’t have to believe in them to poiny point out thet they are wrong
[beyinsiz] did you lie ? or did you trust him in that particular time and event ?
[RazorsKiss] Because the uthmanic revision has nothing to do with the prophethood of Mohammed.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss how do you know that ?
[beyinsiz] ??????????????????????
[RazorsKiss] It has to do with the actions of Uthman, and why he did what he did.
[beyinsiz] ??????????????????????
[RazorsKiss] Why did Uthman burn every Quranic variant?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss how do you know that ? are you inspired or do you have other sources of epistemology ?
[beyinsiz] HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ?
[beyinsiz] HOW
[RazorsKiss] It’s attested fact.
[RazorsKiss] http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1713
[beyinsiz] HOW
[RazorsKiss] read this.
[Colin^] beyinsiz Attested FACT!
[RazorsKiss] I gave my source.
[Bonz] beyinsiz And you have to make arguments against the epistles. You can’t just say you don’t think they were prophets
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss but our case is not what I read. It’s what YOU CLAIM AND HOW YOU ATTEST
[RazorsKiss] and, Dr. White talks about it further in the video above, concerning Ibn Masud.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss answer me
[RazorsKiss] *talks
[beyinsiz] Did uthman burn it ? true or false… see he CANT ANSWER IT 🙂
[beyinsiz] YES OR NO
[beyinsiz] ?
[Delano] Heh
[Delano] beyinsiz, relax
[RazorsKiss] True, Uthman burned every variant copy of the Quran.
[Colin^] beyinsiz has his knickers in a knot
[Delano] beyinsiz, you’re not gonna get any point across by getting upset and TYPING ALL IN CAPS
[Colin^] Delano will be after him. :o(
[beyinsiz] how shameful you are to hold such a stupid logical incoherence. and you were going to discuss me something in particular about quran
[RazorsKiss] Except for Ibn Masud’s, given several sources.
[Bonz] beyinsiz You’re only making yourself look stupid
[Delano] beyinsiz, relax please
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss do you that these sources are historically to be true because they are narrated by prophet muhammad ?
[Delano] beyinsiz, you are an intelligent fellow… there’s no need to get emotional
[Bonz] beyinsiz HIS logic is FINE. It is YOUR logic that is faulty
[RazorsKiss] and, Ibn Masud’s defiance, accordign to those same sources, is the source of the Sunni/Shi’ite split today.
[beyinsiz] Delano ok I will take your word
[RazorsKiss] 1) You claim that Paul is not an apostle
[RazorsKiss] 2) This goes against the word of the apostles you do claim to recognize
[RazorsKiss] 3) Your own Quran tells you to consider that book from God, per Surah 3:84, and several others.
[RazorsKiss] 4) You deny what your own Quran tells you – what is denial of the commands of the Quran called?
[beyinsiz] you FIRST claim something else and failed to prove it
[beyinsiz] and got yourself stuck in a VERY VERY BAD THEOLOGICAL DUBMNESS
[beyinsiz] You couldn’t even answer
[beyinsiz] and you couldn’t even back up what you had to swollow ! now what are you enumerating ????????
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you couldn’t build a ground for your theory You couldn’t believe what you said
[RazorsKiss] I’ll go through it again – if you’d quit typing for a minute, you could spare the time to read it.
[RazorsKiss] 1) You claim that Paul is not an apostle
[beyinsiz] You didn’t confirm the information which yourself has provided
[RazorsKiss] 2) This goes against the word of the apostles you do claim to recognize
[RazorsKiss] 3) Your own Quran tells you to consider that book from God, per Surah 3:84, and several others.
[RazorsKiss] 4) You deny what your own Quran tells you – what is denial of the commands of the Quran called?
[RazorsKiss] Do you have an answer that doesn’t involve two dozen exclamation points?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss but the topic is none of what you have enumerated ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss sure I do have a lot
[RazorsKiss] Actually, it was the original topic I bought up.
[beyinsiz] but I will not skip your turn.
[beyinsiz] no we were discussing about the manuscript transmission
[RazorsKiss] YOU skipped all over creation for all sorts of others topics.
[RazorsKiss] *other
[beyinsiz] it’s now your turn to answer my question. It’s my right to ask.
[RazorsKiss] You’ve been asking the whole time.
[beyinsiz] How do you know that Uthman burnt the manuscript ?
[RazorsKiss] I’ve been answering.
[beyinsiz] the other one ? Prove it
[beyinsiz] no you didn’t it
[beyinsiz] How do you know that ?
[RazorsKiss] Burnt which one?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I don’t know. you claim that he did burn one didn’t yo u???????????????
[RazorsKiss] I gave you the source I had for Uthman’s burning of copies.
[RazorsKiss] You keep ignoring it.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I didn’t ask for any reading source. My question was not that.
[beyinsiz] My question is simply relating to your confirmation that if this historical event is true , then do you believe the narrator, the prophet himself to be true ?
[RazorsKiss] the pertinent section: “‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, “A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it.
[RazorsKiss] So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): ‘Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.’ ” (33.23)”
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss do you believe this to be true ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss do you believe this to be true ?
[beyinsiz] I don’t judge the validity of the text. I am only asking you whether you TAKE THIS TO BE TRUE TO PROPOSE IT AS AN EVIDENCE
[RazorsKiss] On what basis do I have to believe that if one historical narration is true, the whole Quran is true?
[beyinsiz] can you understand that ?
[RazorsKiss] The narrator was not Mohammed.
[RazorsKiss] Secondly.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then do you believe the narrator whatever ?
[RazorsKiss] Sahih Al-Bukhari, 6.507, 509-510:
[RazorsKiss] Who is that, beyinsiz?
[beyinsiz] razor do you believe sahih al bukhari ?
[beyinsiz] it’s a muslim.
[beyinsiz] Do you believe a muslim reporter to be true ?
[beyinsiz] ?????????
[RazorsKiss] I believe he was telling the truth about that story, yes.
[beyinsiz] 🙂
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why ?
[RazorsKiss] I don’t tend to disbelieve people simply because they’re muslim.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then will you believe his other narrations as well ?
[RazorsKiss] Do you disbelieve Sahih Al-Bukhari?
[RazorsKiss] I hear tell he’s a pretty important source.
[RazorsKiss] in fact, one muslim apologist rejected Bukhari’s testimony over this one issue, in a debate with Dr. White.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss ok but here in this very particular event, you take him as an acceptable source regardless of his theological background
[RazorsKiss] Yes, for the third time.
[beyinsiz] Now will you regard his authencity when he narrates miracles of the prophet ?
[beyinsiz] as historical events ?
[beyinsiz] because he has lots of other historical narrations ?
[RazorsKiss] They may be.
[beyinsiz] please answer
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss nooo
[RazorsKiss] Scripture says many false prophets will come, doing signs and wonders.
[RazorsKiss] So Mohammed could easy have done signs and wonders.
[RazorsKiss] *easily
[beyinsiz] you didn’t give any probability to his very particular case. then you must consider the other with certainty on account of the narrator’s authencity
[RazorsKiss] However, he contradicted Scripture.
[RazorsKiss] Which makes him a false prophet in any case.
[RazorsKiss] Further, he was profoundly ignorant of texts he recommends.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Did you not judge the event’s validity based on the narrator’s validity ? now how come it turned out to be “may” and with uthman you took it granted
[RazorsKiss] If you look through the NT, it’s authors are very knowledgeable of the OT.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you are not answering the question
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: that would have to depend on whether or not Uthman had a tested interest in proving Mohommaed as a prophet, wouldn’t it? 😀
[RazorsKiss] *vested
[beyinsiz] razor if you judge it on the narrator’s authencity as you did with uthman’s action to burn the text, then there are other narrations of him that testify his prophecy, the unity of God, and the blasphemy of christians as HISTORICAL EVENTS
[beyinsiz] will you accept them as well ?
[RazorsKiss] I don’t take every historian to be correct in every instance.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss ok then what made you to accept that and this not ?
[RazorsKiss] Especially not concerning an event central to further himself.
[RazorsKiss] Take Josephus, for example.
[beyinsiz] what is your criterian to consider an account of bukhari to be true and the other not ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss now we are talking about our case. let’s not get distracted
[RazorsKiss] On whether it had any self-interest involved.
[beyinsiz] what is your criterian to consider an account of bukhari to be true and the other not ?
[RazorsKiss] If you read the account, it’s very straight-forward.
[beyinsiz] answer the question please
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss according to what ?
[RazorsKiss] one more, and it’s my turn.
[beyinsiz] straight forward what ?
[RazorsKiss] It’s a very bare-bones, to the facts account.
[RazorsKiss] uthman wanted the texts, he got them, the rest were burned.
[beyinsiz] what is your criterian to judge a buhkhari narration to be straight forward to be true and in others parts that he failed ?
[RazorsKiss] all done.
[RazorsKiss] this is your last question – gimme a sec
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss ok but there are other narrations which are straight forwardly testifying the prophet’s validity and so others ?
[beyinsiz] noooooooooo
[beyinsiz] you didn’t answer it. You PROLONGED IT
* RazorsKiss rolls his eyes
[beyinsiz] still you remained a question unreplied because that’s the last station we may arrive !
[RazorsKiss] I judge the bukhari narration to be true in this instance, because there is no self-interest involved in the account.
[RazorsKiss] I do not care, concerning miracles of mohammed, because it’s a non-issue.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss what self interest could he seek with miracles ?
[RazorsKiss] Your turn, when I get back 😀
[beyinsiz] not it’s such a great issue to determine the scale of accepting a norm in analyzing the data
[RazorsKiss] I said last question, and I meant it.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss we will not skip it
[RazorsKiss] You’ve had a good 15 minutes of cross-ex.
[RazorsKiss] My turn – but I want a break for a minute.
[beyinsiz] no you didn’t answer the question you only made another suspicious answer :=)
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss no way man. you lied
[beyinsiz] you are not answering it
[RazorsKiss] then be suspicious all you want.
[RazorsKiss] I don’t care.
[Bonz] beyinsiz Quran was revised many times
[Bonz] http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00.html QURAN NOT GIVEN TO MUHAMMED
[Bonz] But Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.
[RazorsKiss] bbiam.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss it’s not a suspicion of skepticism. It’s your not FULLY responsing kind of manner and logic
[beyinsiz] you never answer the question fully. How do you know that bukhari was seeking self interest or not ? Is it your beliefs and not the facts ?
[beyinsiz] because you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz It is fact and his belief. All of them were liars or insane
[beyinsiz] Bonz and why the other is not a fact or belief since the judgement is based on the narrator’s id ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you screwed up both in terms of your FAITH AND FACT KNOWING
[beyinsiz] you are in a worse trouble man than when you set out to prove
[beyinsiz] you never answer the question fully. How do you know that bukhari was seeking self interest or not ? Is it your beliefs and not the facts ?
[RazorsKiss] you had your say.
[RazorsKiss] My turn.
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[RazorsKiss] I started out with the topic of the Quran contradicting the Scriptures.
[beyinsiz] no answer this because you didn’T fully respond. this is childhish sophistry
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[RazorsKiss] You went off on the “one quranic text” rabbit trail.
[RazorsKiss] I refuted it – you grilled me in return.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss and what did you go off with ?
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[beyinsiz] Your ground of knowledge collapsed
[RazorsKiss] So, back to the original question.
[beyinsiz] the original question was How did you know that
[beyinsiz] and we came to this point and now you evade
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss No I am not skipping that until you finally answer my question
[RazorsKiss] Then you’ll be waiting a while.
[beyinsiz] how come your beliefs must be assumed as historical events objectively , please answer
[RazorsKiss] you asked, I answered.
[RazorsKiss] If you don’t like it, that’s not my problem.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss no you didn’t answer that. you said “I believe that” I say then how come your beliefs are just to be considered as historical events
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[beyinsiz] I will not answer unless you give this a full response
[RazorsKiss] then I suppose you won’t answer.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you can only suppose that you failed to answer the first question I asked
[beyinsiz] I am only doing this to make you seem worse
[RazorsKiss] You may be in the habit of directing every single conversation you have, but I am not in the habit of letting someone else control entire conversations.
[beyinsiz] so that perhaps you will regard to re think what you have done. That will be a good lesson for you
* Delano chuckles
[Bonz] beyinsiz YOU are the one who is evading. Your pretend is not working
[Delano] So it’s a power struggle :op
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I never did that at all. each time I asked the question you altered the topic to something else.
* Colin^ giggles at the dualing egos
[beyinsiz] you consciously prolonged it and now you evade
[organicwrk] That does it. I’m pulling the car over.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books are mentioned in surah 3:84?
[Bonz] beyinsiz Why are you AFRAID to answer RazorsKiss ?
[beyinsiz] you say you claim that because you believe this thing to be true ? and I am asking why your beliefs must be regarded as historical facts ?
[RazorsKiss] It’s because he knows his prophet was ignorant of the NT.
[beyinsiz] what kind of faith and fact appreciation is that ?
[RazorsKiss] not to mention of the Hebrew OT.
[beyinsiz] because you say you claim that because you believe this thing to be true ? and I am asking why your beliefs must be regarded as historical facts ?
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books are mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] answer the question dont flee
[beyinsiz] you are fleeing from it
[beyinsiz] because you say you claim that because you believe this thing to be true ? and I am asking why your beliefs must be regarded as historical facts ?
[RazorsKiss] It’s not ego, by the by.
[RazorsKiss] This is called “scattershot apologetics”
[beyinsiz] razor then why do you consider your own person beliefs that they must be regarded as historical facts ? Must I believe the way you do to understand the truth ?
[RazorsKiss] Throw as many objections as humanly possible at your opponent, and try to find one, by volume or ignorance, he cannot answer.
[deja_vu] beyonisz is using ‘apologist techniques’ to beat back Razorskiss
[RazorsKiss] Actually, it’s just being rude.
[RazorsKiss] Unfortunately, some people consider that an apologetic.
[beyinsiz] If that’s the case then why do you find it worth to ask a question since it’s all up to beliefs ? not logic ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz HE DID NOT SAY IT IS TRUE.
[beyinsiz] yes he did say it true. Bonz
[beyinsiz] he said uthman burnt it
[beyinsiz] I said how
[beyinsiz] he said bukhari reported it
[beyinsiz] I said do you believe him
[beyinsiz] he kept not answering for like 5 minutes or something
[beyinsiz] then he said the prophet was a fake
[beyinsiz] I said then how come do you believe in his narrator
[Bonz] It doesn’t mater if him. All he has to do is QUOTE him
[beyinsiz] he then waited a bit and said this one is ok . then I said why not the other, the one on his validity etc ?
[RazorsKiss] Actually, you asked if I thought the prophet was true.
[Bonz] It does not matter if he believes him
[RazorsKiss] Which had nothing to do with Bukhari.
[beyinsiz] he said it may have that he could show miracles giving some account for that . then I questioned his probability comment on that he didn’t answer as to his double standart
[RazorsKiss] But, regardless, I’m getting off the objection-go-round until you answer a question.
[beyinsiz] and then I asked him how did he know that he said this to be true ? he said HE BELIEVES SO
[Bonz] beyinsiz So YOU avoided the issue. “then I said why not the other, the one on his validity etc ?”
[RazorsKiss] I went 15-20 minutes fielding objections.
[RazorsKiss] Yet, beyinsiz can’t seem to answer one. Very telling for the truth of Islam, isn’t it?
[beyinsiz] then I said how come his beliefs could be facts objectively to be taken true ? no you fielded nothing more complicated than what I summarized.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books are mentioned in surah 3:84?
[Bonz] beyinsiz YOU do not get to ask HIM questions. You have to ANSWER one
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you couldn’t even answer one question. you try to get rid of it
[RazorsKiss] all he’s done is ask questions.
[RazorsKiss] All I’ve done is answer them.
[beyinsiz] no you couldn’t
[RazorsKiss] Well… I’ve tried to ask them 😀
[Bonz] beyinsiz You have CONSTANTLY asked questions, ad NEVER said anything
[RazorsKiss] But someone isn’t answering.
[RazorsKiss] Perhaps because they can’t, without self-refutation?
[beyinsiz] you tried well I am sorry but it didn’t work. Not my fault. You ended up saying your beliefs are the truths as historical facts
[beyinsiz] and now I am asking why then are you asking me ???????
[Bonz] beyinsiz He doesn’t HAVE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS
[beyinsiz] and now I am asking why then are you asking me ???????
[RazorsKiss] to show your truth claims for what they are – self-refuting.
[beyinsiz] you tried well I am sorry but it didn’t work. Not my fault. You ended up saying your beliefs are the truths as historical facts
[beyinsiz] and now I am asking why then are you asking me ???????
[RazorsKiss] sheer volume doesn’t show truthfulness.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss if that’s all up to the belief to prove some point as fact will you regard some claim that you are pumpkin because they believe ?
[RazorsKiss] Neither does the volume of objections.
[RazorsKiss] The failure to answer a question – from your own text – speaks volumes in itself.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss according your own view of epistemology, if some other person believes that you are a bulky pumpkin he has all the right and it is as an historical fact. that’s where you end up
[RazorsKiss] Unless you’re prepared to answer?
* RazorsKiss will answer for beyinsiz, in that case.
[Bonz] beyinsiz You have nothing other than belief. Why is his standard higher?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why would I answer ? you defined true knowledge on the basis of faith as it PROVES THE HISTORICAL FACT.
[beyinsiz] Why would you regard my questions as worthy when they are not YOUR BELIEFS ?
[beyinsiz] whyyyyyyyyyyyyy
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz cannot escape the fact that Islam is grounded in ignorance.
[Bonz] beyinsiz All religions do that. Islam included
[beyinsiz] razor well you’re groundless to say that. that’s for sure
[beyinsiz] you are embarrassed.
[RazorsKiss] Islam points their followers toward the scriptures of Christians and the Jews – yet contradicts them throughout the Quran.
[beyinsiz] you made such a big mistake and you even know dont where exactly you stand
[RazorsKiss] Which shows, quite clearly, that Mohammed was not only not a prophet, but not even knowledgeable of what he spoke of.
[beyinsiz] because youur reliance on a historical fact as YOU ADMIT is not beyond a “belief”
[RazorsKiss] Further, it shows that Mohammed did not consider the Scriptures to be corrupted.
[RazorsKiss] Yet, modern islam claims the opposite.
[RazorsKiss] Mohammed pointed to the Scriptures as the words of God.
[RazorsKiss] Modern islam points to the scriptures, and says “corrupted”.
[RazorsKiss] This is demonstrably false, given that we have many, many, MANY manuscipt copies FAR predating Mohammed.
[RazorsKiss] that say exactly what we can read today.
[RazorsKiss] Thus, Mohammed was pointing to a book that was in the same form as we see it now – and calling it God’s.
[RazorsKiss] Yet, his followers contradict him, and us.
[RazorsKiss] That’s why beyinsiz won’t answer the question.
[RazorsKiss] He can’t.
[RazorsKiss] It shows the bankruptcy at the heart of Islam.
[RazorsKiss] The demonstrable lie that is Islam, and the demonstrable lie that Mohammed is a prophet of any sort – let alone a prophet of God.
* RazorsKiss gives beyinsiz the floor back. All yours, man. But remember – Christ can save, and save perfectly.
[RazorsKiss] God bless.

For further references:

Mohamed Did Not Believe that the Old Testament was Corrupt
Quran 101: The Uthmanic Revision
An Interesting Conversation
Ibn Masud’s Death and the text of the Quran

Once upon a time, in a wild little channel called #Scripture, a group of atheists sat there and mocked. For hours. Here’s how it went, including the title story, at the end.

[avalanch_] one does not deal with the irrational undesireables by taking them seriously and trying to argue with them. they refuse to listen to reason afterall.
[avalanch_] thus, much as we ridicule neo-nazi’s, so too must we ridicule theists.
[avalanch_] i can not help being superior.
[glk] Jesus stories do not sound like historical data. All gods are based on faith.
[ridge_`] avalanch_: in the end, it’s the most effective means of dispelling myths.
[avalanch_] ridge: i agree. the more we ridicule theism, the more the smart people will realize theism just isn’t cool and respect-worthy
[RazorsKiss] Prv9:8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. (NAS)
[glk] Feel free to correct my facts
[RazorsKiss] avalanch_: the more you show disdain, the more you show condescension, the more it’s apparent what the fruit of your worldview is.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: do you not disdain criminals? do you not disdain the intolerant? the bigoted? have you no disdain for those that are simply less than you?
[avalanch_] no single religion has ever included more than 50% of humans.
[RazorsKiss] Who are the criminals? Who are the intolerant? Who are the bigoted? Who consider others less than themselves?
[RazorsKiss] Those who are consumed by overweening pride.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: so, you have no disdain for pedophiles and rapists?
[RazorsKiss] Thus, we can see the fruit of your worldview.
[RazorsKiss] pedophiles and rapists have a disdain for their victims.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: and yet you have no disdain for them?
[RazorsKiss] I’m no better than they are.
[RazorsKiss] Neither are you.
[RazorsKiss] The true problem is that you think you are.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: ofcourse you’re better than they are. as am i. we are not all created equal, no matter what you might think.
[RazorsKiss] I don’t think we were. I think we’re all equally sinful by nature, however.
[glk] I never sin. Sin is violations of a religion rule. I have no religion or god.
[RazorsKiss] And what you disdain, I consider equally created in the image of God, if not identical in giftedness.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: so, god created pedophiles? and this is a god you WORSHOP? what is WRONG with you?
[RazorsKiss] No, God created humans.
[RazorsKiss] Humans sin.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: we have no evidence of that whatsoever.
[RazorsKiss] So you’ll assume, yes.
[RazorsKiss] Some sin sexually, some sin intellectually.
[avalanch_] yet all are created equally by your god apparantly
[glk] I never sin. Sin is violations of a religion rule. I have no religion or god.
[RazorsKiss] We are created as humans, yes – and all humans have the image of God in their ability to think, and to act.
[glk] I was born, not created by any gods
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: so now *god* is a pedophile?
[glk] Gods are not detected. People invent gods and write holy books.
[glk] There was no Adam, Eve, original sin, talking snake, magic trees, Fall or world flood. Genesis is mythology.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: i’m sorry, i just can not believe in a god that allows such people to exist
[glk] There was no 6 day creation or Noah Flood. Genesis is mythology.
[RazorsKiss] Is equivocation your usual debate tactic?
[glk] Modern people lived over 200,000 years ago. Cave art dates to 30,000 years old. The first hominids date to about 6 million years old.
[RazorsKiss] Or do you just do that when you lack an argument?
[RazorsKiss] Fallacies don’t become the eminently superior, do they?
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: i think the fact that evil exists in the world is reason enough not to worship god.
[avalanch_] this is hardly a fallacy
[glk] I detect none of the gods, Allah to Zeus.
[RazorsKiss] I think that argument by equivocation is hardly a sound argument.
[glk] Modern people lived over 200,000 years ago. Cave art dates to 30,000 years old. The first hominids date to about 6 million years old.
[RazorsKiss] Let’s set up your argument as propositions, shall we?
[avalanch_] let’s not.
[RazorsKiss] 1. God created men.
[RazorsKiss] 2. Some men are pedophiles.
[RazorsKiss] 3. God is a pedophile.
Is this a sound argument, avalanch_?
[glk] Modern people lived over 200,000 years ago. Cave art dates to 30,000 years old. The first hominids date to about 6 million years old.
[RazorsKiss] Or is that a rampant equivocation?
[glk] There is no evidence for a Noah flood
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: 1. god supposedly created man IN HIS OWN IMAGE, 2. some men are rapists.
[glk] No water exists to flood the earth
[RazorsKiss] Define image.
[avalanch_] no, *you* define it. you’re the one who believes it.
[RazorsKiss] Why, you’re the one using it in an argument.
[RazorsKiss] Shouldn’t you be able to define what you’re attacking?
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: nope.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: you’re the one that made the claim god created us in his image. not me.
[glk] No science or history reference agrees with your stories.
[RazorsKiss] Well, I thought you were interested in a rational discussion – it seems I was mistaken.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: rational? with someone like you? surely you jest.
[RazorsKiss] Given that your first attempt at a “rational” argument was a demonstrable fallacy, I really find the accusation amusing.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: what on earth makes you think i was trying to hold a rational debate with you? you deserve nothing but my ridicule.
[glk] Gods do nothing
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: if i was trying to hold a rational debate, i certainly wouldn’t do it here.
[RazorsKiss] heh.
[RazorsKiss] then come over to #apologetics.
[avalanch_] i’d rather not. they’re as irrational over there as they are here.
[glk] I am old and very wise.
[RazorsKiss] oh… so what you’re saying is, you assume irrationality a priori.
[RazorsKiss] Right, well. That’s certainly… rational.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: anyone who believes in a magic skydaddy can’t possibly be very rational on the subject.
[ridge_`] avalanch_: again, ridicule debate works best. Do not stray from the system.
[RazorsKiss] yes, that’s certainly showing the massive depth and weight of your argumentation 😀
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: again, you are under the mistaken impression that i’m trying to hold a rational debate here.
[RazorsKiss] create a strawman… call it names… then dismiss it.
[avalanch_] RazorsKiss: don’t project.
[avalanch_] ridge: i concur.
[avalanch_] ridge: unfortunately they seem to mistake my mockery for attempts at rational arguments.
[avalanch_] ridge: which only serves to further heighten my amusement at ridiculing them
[RazorsKiss] or, perhaps, it’s all you’re capable of?
[ridge_`] You expect too much.
[avalanch_] ridge: well i do have standards.
[RazorsKiss] We could turn it around.
[RazorsKiss] Let’s say there’s a group that believe in random uniformity.
[RazorsKiss] That everything random is random in a uniform manner.
[RazorsKiss] Always random, just the same.
[RazorsKiss] These folks all assume that everything happens the same way.
[RazorsKiss] But that it all happens randomly, of course.
[RazorsKiss] And that this uniform randomness somehow gave rise to order.
[RazorsKiss] This uniform randomness is governed by something called entropy.
[RazorsKiss] This entropy ensures that things stay orderly.
[RazorsKiss] Because, after all, there has to be a reason for a magic boom.
[RazorsKiss] That magic boom created something from nothing!
[RazorsKiss] The nothing, which became something, had no reason for being something.
[RazorsKiss] But, because it was something, it couldn’t reasonably just stay nothing.
[RazorsKiss] It had to expand.
[RazorsKiss] In an orderly fashion, of course.
[RazorsKiss] Because entropy said so.
[RazorsKiss] This entropic order which expanded the nothingness into something, with it’s random uniformity, decided, in a randomly uniform whim, to start becoming things.
[RazorsKiss] Those things were obeying laws.
[RazorsKiss] Those laws are immaterial things with no origin, and no reason, that mysteriously ignore quite seriously, any attempt at reason.
[glk] The laws came from the big bang
[RazorsKiss] It’s quite a mystery, in a completely rational universe.
[RazorsKiss] Of course, this rationality has no origin, and it governs everything – sensibly, of course.
[RazorsKiss] For no reason, with eminently reasonable guidelines.
[RazorsKiss] Now, all of this something, which came from nothing, and is orderly in it’s obedience to entropy
[RazorsKiss] In it’s eminent reasonableness, decided to become orderly matter – which random caromed around the universe.
[glk] Laws made the order, like electricity and gravity
[glk] Solar systems for naturally
[RazorsKiss] Sure, glk – it’s lawfully obeying entropy in an orderly fashion.
[RazorsKiss] Everyone knows that, after all.
[RazorsKiss] They teach it in schools!
[RazorsKiss] So, anyway, where was I?
[RazorsKiss] Oh, yes. Orderly matter.
[RazorsKiss] Blindly obeying the random laws of nothing in particular, for no reason whatsoever.
[glk] You obey the blind laws of nature
[RazorsKiss] Right.
[RazorsKiss] So. This matter spends a long time – which is our new hero!
[RazorsKiss] And this time doesn’t obey random chance. oh, no.
[RazorsKiss] It has a goal! Entropy set it into motion, and it’s function is to overcome the evil forces of entropy
[RazorsKiss] Doesn’t that make it all better?
[RazorsKiss] So, our hero, time, spends… billions of years. Doing not a whole lot.
[RazorsKiss] Just blindly ticking.
[glk] The earth is 4.57 billion years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
[RazorsKiss] Watching atoms spin around.
[RazorsKiss] It’s great fun.
[RazorsKiss] If time could have fun, and was anything but a deus ex machina.
[RazorsKiss] But, all assumptions have a deus ex machina – and time is ours!
[RazorsKiss] So, time does all sorts of incalculable things over countless eons…
[RazorsKiss] (because, duh – there was no one to count them?)
[RazorsKiss] And then we magically have a planet, built completely out of popsicle sticks and paper mache.
[avalanch_] i don’t think you understand how gravity works.
[glk] Over 300 other planets are observed
[RazorsKiss] And a big fireball, formed out of time’s massive boredom.
[avalanch_] but that’s okay. you’re oberying it anyway
[RazorsKiss] But then time realized that was all a dumb idea
[RazorsKiss] And went back to the original mindless plan
[RazorsKiss] Of spending forever, waiting for something to happen
[RazorsKiss] Well, all sorts of things happened, as far as is assumed – because noone was there to observe it
[RazorsKiss] And then there was a planet – and it was all due to chance and time.
but chance wasn’t really the hero. Time was.
[avalanch_] no, it was thanks to gravity actually
[glk] They can look back in time close to the big bang
[RazorsKiss] yeah, I guess all of those immaterial, and inexplicable magic laws had a bit to do with it.
[avalanch_] how did god? same fricking problem
[RazorsKiss] But we can’t go spoiling time’s heroic epic, can we?
[glk] it was the origin of space time matter and energy
[RazorsKiss] This is about TIME!
[RazorsKiss] Not about some silly laws that have no explanation from a naturalistic perspective!
[glk] The origin of the big bang is unknown
[RazorsKiss] We can’t go yammering on about some bunch of laws that just exist, can we?
[avalanch_] glk: m-model dude. M MODEL!
[avalanch_] ofcourse we can
[RazorsKiss] And the magic explosion is NOT CRITICAL
[RazorsKiss] Time, as everyone knows, is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of it all.
[avalanch_] it’s not an explosion.
[RazorsKiss] Don’t interrupt me, I’m mocking.
[avalanch_] *that* is mocking?
[RazorsKiss]Are you seriously expecting this to be a rational debate?
[avalanch_] don’t be preposterous.
[RazorsKiss] I can’t believe you could be so stupid as to think this was all about you.
[RazorsKiss] I mean really.
[RazorsKiss] Does the world revolve around you?
[RazorsKiss] Are you some sort of flat-earther? get real. I’m mocking here.
[RazorsKiss] Don’t confuse yourself – people are trying to mock.
[RazorsKiss] And mocking is key to the success of your time here.
[RazorsKiss] Remember that – it’s critical.
[RazorsKiss] So, anyway.
[RazorsKiss] The heroic time, and his bumbling, blinded sidekick, random chance
go reeling through history, screwing everything up, according to entropy’s orders
[RazorsKiss] And, automagically – because we assume this a priori – we couldn’t be telling this story otherwise, could we?
[RazorsKiss] Some rocks turn into magical pre-life amino acids
[RazorsKiss] It’s quite a loving sight
[glk] That is part of the mystery
[avalanch_] i wouldn’t call them magical.
[glk] Amino acids form naturally
[RazorsKiss] The heroes watching the mysterious, magical amino acids… gurgling
[RazorsKiss] Just… doing whatever magical things amino acids do.
[glk] Carbon meteorites contain amino acids
[RazorsKiss] And then, after about a billion years of staring
[RazorsKiss] They’re living organisms!
[ridge_`] We should have the science and knowledge NOW, what we’ll have in 200 yrs from now, if not for that blasted magic stratosphere man.
[RazorsKiss] It’s really an unremarkable thing, because, after all, no one’s around to remark
and no one will care for a billion or two more years
[avalanch_] ridge: hell, if the ancient greek civilization had continued, we could have been living on mars for centuries now
[RazorsKiss] Not that caring has any possible significance, even to modern descendants of those amino acids
[RazorsKiss] But, we digress!
[ridge_`] Time to crush this thing once and for all. But HOW?
[avalanch_] ridge: nanophage
[ridge_`] Facts do no good.
[RazorsKiss] And time, being a bit of a patient type, keeps enduring random chance’s bumbling lack of progress
[avalanch_] ridge: i’m telling you, nanophage. just a little mass genocide.
[RazorsKiss] But, entropy, with it’s constant need to tear things down
[RazorsKiss] Manages to form complex living creatures
[RazorsKiss] And random chance is mighty put out.
[RazorsKiss] Let me tell ya. he was still enjoying watching the amino acids, and now he has to try to screw something ELSE up.
[RazorsKiss] Entropy was seriously falling down on the job, you know?
[RazorsKiss] And random chance just wasn’t going to take this lying down.
[glk] The Stanley-Miller experiment produced amino acids from simple gas mixtures
[RazorsKiss] All of this added complexity just wasn’t working for him.
[RazorsKiss] See, it made more work for random chance
[RazorsKiss] And who wants more work?
[RazorsKiss] But time was inexorable
[RazorsKiss] You know him – he stops for no… complex organism
[RazorsKiss] I think I’ll stop story time for now – tune in next time for “random chance: multiplied unimaginably, and still unable to stop unlikely mutation!”
~The End

Well, I have to admit, it feels a bit like 3 years ago, yesterday. Big honkin’ hurricane in the Gulf, fear and agitation as people ponder their own helplessness in the face of the force of nature’s fury. The added weight, this time, of the memories of devastation, destruction, and loss of life. What is brought to mind most clearly at this time, however, is the fact that there are no accidents. There is nothing that is not the express will of God, or that is not His good and perfect will. With this thought in the forefront, we can only think one thing, when facing nature’s wrath.

This is our Father’s world. Do you really know, deep down in your heart of hearts, what the implications of this are? It’s truly a wonderful thing to behold. Not because I’m “smarter”, or more courageous. (As a side note, what else I find interesting is that our church is in the midst of a study of the book of Joshua, my namesake. What is the cardinal principle of this book? Be Strong and Courageous! Why? For the LORD your God is with you wherever you go!) When we look at all things through the prism of God’s glorification of Himself, and His promises to glorify Himself through us, can we submit to fear? Is it even an option for us to buckle beneath pressure, or bemoan our “fate”, as if God did not have a greater glory to involve us in, through it? I cannot imagine such a thing. I cannot wish such a thing. I cannot, because I know the God I serve. When faced with situations that threaten us, tempt us to ditch our faith, and abandon our hope, we can have only one response.

Joy. Does that sound strange to you? Perhaps it shouldn’t.

How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. ~ 2 Cor. 8;2

Didn’t we see that, after the last big storm?

Then he said to them, “Go, eat of the fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.” ~ Neh 8:10

Do you see, yet? What gives us strength?

But let all who take refuge in You be glad, Let them ever sing for joy; And may You shelter them, That those who love Your name may exult in You. ~ Psalm 5:11

Who is our shelter? What is the subject of the great hymn, “A Mighty Fortress”? Is this not the same principle?

For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You have done, I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands. ~Psalm 92:4

Even hurricanes are the work of God’s hands. I’ll repeat something I said a long time ago, and has stuck with me ever since.

During the hurricane, it was an adventure. The kind of adventure guys really do like, and don’t really care if anyone thinks they’re crazy for liking. The wind made the house shudder, and shake. The trees’ branches were snapping off right and left, making an awful racket. The rain was driving so hard that it really was painful, when it hit you. Small objects were flying past you at 70+ mph – and all you could do was hold on. I’ll confess – I loved it.

I’m not crazy. I’m a typical guy, I think. I never felt like I was in *real* danger. But I knew I could have been. Adrenaline makes you feel like a million bucks. It’s that feeling you get when you take a curve a hair too fast in a sports car, and get dangerously close to spinning out of it – but you don’t. Your heart races, your blood is pumping so loud in your ears… and you feel alive. Okay, maybe I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie.

Mostly, though, I was in awe of the display of God’s might. Not that this was a “judgment”, or anything. Just the fact that God’s creation is so breathtakingly powerful, and knowing that God created it. If this storm is this powerful… and God made it… what must God be like?

I spent a good bit of the time curled up on the porch, head on my knees, tears in my eyes, and my heart in my throat. I wasn’t scared. I don’t think i was ever scared once, to be honest. It was too freaking cool. I was praising God, all by myself. Just me, and God, in the middle of this mighty storm – and I was singing. Brokenly, but I was singing. It was that awesome. It’s truly an experience I really don’t quite know how to share. God was just… there. He was with me. I’m not going to say I felt His “special hand of protection on me” – although it may well have been. I just know God was present, because His children can always feel it. I can’t explain it any other way.

I wasn’t scared. I wasn’t even worried. I was awestruck by how unbelievably magnificent a thing that His power had wrought. I can’t really say I’d still say the same, had I sustained more damage. We had almost nothing damaged at all. All I know is – that hurricane, from the inside, was quite possibly the coolest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. I couldn’t help but fall down and praise. I just couldn’t. I hadn’t told anyone this story yet – not really. Bethany heard it, sort of. I don’t know if I got it across very well to her at the time. It seemed a bit odd a thing to share, really. It’s what happened, though. In the wake of all the devastation, all the pain, and all the loss – I almost feel bad saying I think it was so neat. The actual storm WAS neat. What it did wasn’t so neat. The storm itself… I have never seen anything like it, and likely never will again.

I got to sit and watch the ENTIRE thing from a dry place, I was safe, and I praised God.

I said that back in this post, in Dec. of ’05.

In the midst of a possible dervish of destruction – you know what? God is still in control of things. He’s still the Author and Finisher of our faith. He still has His hand on the tiller. He still “upholds all things by the word of His power” (Heb 1:3). Fear not!

There is a perfect purpose in the midst of these events, no matter whether we can see it or not. So, while I did do some preparation for the hurricane’s landfall in my area, I also know I can’t lose sight of the fact that there is no room for “a spirit of fear” in the heart of a Christian – only for power, and for love, and for a sound mind (2 Tim. 1:7). So, if you also find yourself in the path of a storm, or in the midst of difficulty; “Be strong and courageous! Do not tremble or be dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.” (Joshua 1:9)

I’ve live-blogged the last few hurricanes I’ve been around for – I’ll likely do the same with this one, as long as I can. I’m 8 miles north of the beach, same house as last time, and the same God is still my God 😀 Don’t worry. God’s in control, and His glory will be displayed in this. In the meantime, pray, meditate on His goodness, and even love this awesome display of might in His creation. I assure you – it is a powerful and blessed thing.

Those who learn from the past…

The soul of the Pelagian system is human freedom; the soul of the Augustinian is divine grace.

Pelagius starts from the natural man, and works up, by his own exertions, to righteousness and holiness. Augustine despairs of the moral sufficiency of man, and derives the new life and all power for good from the creative grace of God.

The one system proceeds from the liberty of choice to legalistic piety; the other from the bondage of sin to the evangelical liberty of the children of God.

To the former Christ is merely a teacher and example, and grace an external auxiliary to the development of the native powers of man; to the latter he is also Priest and King, and grace a creative principle, which begets, nourishes, and consummates a new life.

The former makes regeneration and conversion a gradual process of the strengthening and perfecting of human virtue; the latter makes it a complete transformation, in which the old disappears and all becomes new.

The one loves to admire the dignity and strength of man; the other loses itself in adoration of the glory and omnipotence of God.

The one flatters natural pride, the other is a gospel for penitent publicans and sinners.

Pelagianism begins with self-exaltation and ends with the sense of self-deception and impotency. Augustinianism casts man first into the dust of humiliation and despair, in order to lift him on the wings of grace to supernatural strength, and leads him through the hell of self-knowledge up to the heaven of the knowledge of God.

The Pelagian system is clear, sober, and intelligible, but superficial; the Augustinian sounds the depths of knowledge and experience, and renders reverential homage to mystery.

The former is grounded upon the philosophy of common sense, which is indispensable for ordinary life, but has no perception of divine things; the latter is grounded upon the philosophy of the regenerate reason, which breaks through the limits of nature, and penetrates the depths of divine revelation.

The former starts with the proposition: Intellectus praecedit fidem; the latter with the opposite maxim: Fides praecedit intellectum.

Both make use of the Scriptures; the one, however, conforming them to reason, the other subjecting reason to them.

Pelagianism has an unmistakable affinity with rationalism, and supplies its practical side. To the natural will of the former system corresponds the natural reason of the latter; and as the natural will, according to Pelagianism, is competent to good, so is the natural reason, according to rationalism, competent to the knowledge of the truth.

All rationalists are Pelagian in their anthropology; but Pelagius and Coelestius were not consistent, and declared their agreement with the traditional orthodoxy in all other doctrines, though without entering into their deeper meaning and connection.

Even divine mysteries may be believed in a purely external, mechanical way, by inheritance from the past, as the history of theology, especially in the East, abundantly proves.

~Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

The Daily Cut 8-25-08

I found an interesting post by a former/vacationing #prosapologian channel regular, on the subject of presuppositional apologetics. When I pointed it out to Chris, from Choosing Hats, he wrote a response.

Also at Choosing Hats, installment 2 of their study of Always Ready – I really recommend it.

If I haven’t mentioned it before, I’m trying to complete the outline/syllabus of a church history class for my church. This is preparatory for a later class on apologetics. In my study, I’ve been buying a lot of rather interesting books, and listening to a lot of lectures. I enjoy it, though. I’ll try to share as much as I can, as I progress. One thing I should share: it’s possible to get Schaff’s History of the Christian Church, in an e-sword plugin – for FREE. The program’s free, the plugin is free – and it’s searchable. You can get the Ante-nicene fathers, and lots of other stuff, too, not to mention the completely searchable versions of QUITE a few bible translations. I’m stuck in footnotes and references right now, so I’m a bit out of my mind in boredom 😀 But, the history of the church is integral to the study and practice of apologetics. So, have to do that first!

Michael Memorial Baptist Church- 8-3-2008, sermon preached by Dr. Bill Safley

First, let me thank you for caring enough about your church to be here and help with this decision. And, let me sincerely thank those of you who were kind enough to let me know of your concerns ahead of time. That really helps, and I hope that will make this time more productive. Let me also remind of our plan. Tonight, I am going to try to address as many of these issues as I can. And, I want this time to be, above all else, biblical. I think we all can start by agreeing that what counts most is not what I think or you think, but what God thinks. So, I’ll try to stick close to Scripture. Then, you will have to judge whether or not what I say is, in fact, truly in line with the instructions in the Bible about organizing and administering the local church. And, let me get a couple of things out of the way up front. You may not agree with your leadership. You may speak or vote against this – and we will have a secret ballot so everyone will not be pressured in any way – you can oppose this, and we will still love you. And, I’m aware that there are some strong feelings, so I would plead with you to keep your mind open to what we say. Also, don’t bother taking notes, or writing down Scripture references; the text from which I am speaking will be available to you to read and pray over. As we start, let’s ask for the wisdom of God to be with us over the next few weeks.

We are considering a new church Constitution. This all started in a Deacon’s meeting in June of ’06. One of our deacons was frustrated that he was not having more time for ministry. That’s where this man’s heart is, and he didn’t want to be distracted with Administrative issues. He understood the biblical call of a deacon is to be a servant. It turned out several deacons felt the same way. As this church currently set up, the Administrative Board is a sub-committee of the deacon body, and reports to them. So, I was asked by the Deacons to help formulate a new Constitution that would allow us to better separate the administrative and ministry functions of leadership. I did not start this ball rolling, though I certainly do agree with it as scriptural. It began in that Deacon’s meeting. At that time, we thought that a simple revision / a touch-up of what we have was not going to be adequate, so I moved in the direction of a new document. I got together, and then presented to the deacon body a framework to revise. Now, two years and many revisions later, these documents come to you for your consideration with the recommendation of the Deacons and the By-Laws Committee. How was this document formed? To quote our dear friend, Chuck Brooks, you don’t want to go out and reinvent the wheel. So, my starting point was to gather constitutions now in use from a variety of churches, mostly Baptist, and start there. We didn’t write most of this document. The basic framework is from the Constitution of the Capital Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D. C., with some additions from other churches as appropriate, and adjustments for our particular situation. This is a legal document, which requires some precision and legal language, but there has never been any intent to confuse or hide anything. You can go to the Capital Hill Church web site and download that document, and get a very good idea of where much of this started. Still, we have made every effort to consider the special needs and situations of our congregation here. I have received the concerns that this proposed Constitution turns our church into a (“”) secular or social organization. I have been told that this document is “unfriendly.” We are not a secular organization, as this Constitution clearly reflects. Yet, we still must function in a secular world. A Constitution is needed to do that. And, while we don’t want to ever be unfriendly in our approach to anyone, we also must be clear, saying in this document what we believe and are going to do. And, remember our most important concern should be whether or not this document accurately reflects what the Bible teaches. And, I don’t think you will ever find a secular organization with that emphasis.

One question asked why we should have a Constitution at all. It is true that this is a legal requirement to do business, specifically to borrow money. But, in my opinion, there is a much more important reason. From the very start of the church, there have been and still are false believers who want to twist the meaning of Scripture. Peter says that (2Pet. 3:16). The first example of this was the Judaizers who hounded Paul, and the churches he founded. These were self-appointed teachers who said that Christians had to be circumcised and keep all the Law of Moses. They caused such a ruckus that the church met in the first church counsel in Acts 15 to settle the issue. The leaders of the church, then, put out a statement to protect the truth. That has been the pattern of the church ever since. Counsels met from time to time to reject heresy, correct error, and protect the Scripture. And, Baptists have always seen the need for this protective document in the local church. That is the reason the Convention publishes the Baptist Faith and Message. That document clarifies what we, as Southern Baptists, believe the Bible means by what it says. The earliest Baptist confession I can find is the first London Confession of Faith from 1644. The first Baptist statement in America was the Philadelphia Confession of 1742. I wish it was as simple as just saying, “We believe the Bible and love Jesus,” but it is not. Mormons agree with that. A Jehovah’s Witness can say that. So, a Constitution defining what we believe is essential, and I think that document should also say how we will run our church. That’s necessary from a legal standpoint, from a theological standpoint, and I think it is required in order to be honest with new members. There are so many interpretations of some parts of Scripture; we ought to be clear with potential members where we stand simply on the basis of honesty and integrity. And, there is the issue of protecting ourselves in a society that will sue over anything and everything. This document helps protect us in that area. And, I’ve heard that we shouldn’t worry about things like that and just trust God. But, the Bible also says we are not to put the Lord to a foolish test (Matt. 4:7). It’s like Bro. Frank Schmidt said, “The Lord is not going to do for us, what he has told us to do for ourselves.” If I get on my motorcycle without a helmet and wind up a brain-dead, do I bear responsibility for that? Sure. Jesus says (Matt. 10:16), “Be wise as serpents.” Stay out of obvious trouble. Take reasonable precautions. That is Scriptural. Proverbs agrees This is Prov. 22:3, “A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, But the simple pass on and are punished.” That said, I think we see the need for a Constitution. Also, I would ask you to understand there is a certain priority in these four documents. The statement of faith and church covenant should be rock solid and nonnegotiable. We should be utterly united there. The Constitution certainly is somewhat flexible, and open to amendment, but amendments should be carefully considered, and have to be properly done. The membership application, however, is something that can be modified at any time.

As far as I can tell, I think the main issues are those of Membership requirements, Church Discipline, and Elder Rule. So, we will try to look at these in that order, which is the order they occur in the Constitution. To consider Church Membership, I want to start by reading to you a resolution adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention at the national meeting a couple of months ago.

The resolution is entitled “On Regenerate Church Membership and Church Member Restoration.” The Southern Convention national meeting on June 11 of this year passed this. So, that’s 8 weeks ago.

“WHEREAS, The ideal of a regenerate church membership has long been and remains a cherished Baptist principle, with Article VI of the Baptist Faith and Message describing the church as a “local congregation of baptized believers”; and

WHEREAS, A New Testament church is composed only of those who have been born again by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Word, becoming disciples of Jesus Christ, the local church’s only Lord, by grace through faith (John 3:5; Ephesians 2:8-9), which church practices believers’ only baptism by immersion (Matthew 28:16-20), and the Lord’s supper (Matthew 26:26-30); and

WHEREAS, Local associations, state conventions, and the Southern Baptist Convention compile statistics reported by the churches to make decisions for the future; and

WHEREAS, the 2007 Southern Baptist Convention annual Church Profiles indicate that there are 16,266,920 members in Southern Baptist churches; and

WHEREAS, Those same profiles indicate that only 6,148,868 of those members attend a primary worship service of their church in a typical week; and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures admonish us to exercise church discipline as we seek to restore any professed brother or sister in Christ who has strayed from the truth and is in sin (Matthew 18:15-35; Galatians 6:1); and now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Indianapolis, Indiana, June 10-11, 2008, urge churches to maintain a regenerate membership by acknowledging the necessity of spiritual regeneration and Christ’s lordship for all members; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we humbly urge our churches to maintain accurate membership rolls for the purpose of fostering ministry and accountability among all members of the congregation; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we urge the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention to repent of the failure among us to live up to our professed commitment to regenerate church membership and any failure to obey Jesus Christ in the practice of lovingly correcting wayward church members (Matthew 18:15-18); and be it further

RESOLVED, That we humbly encourage denominational servants to support and encourage churches that seek to recover and implement our Savior’s teachings on church discipline, even if such efforts result in the reduction in the number of members that are reported in those churches, and be it finally

RESOLVED, That we humbly urge the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention and their pastors to implement a plan to minister to, counsel, and restore wayward church members based upon the commands and principles given in Scripture (Matthew 18:15-35; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15; Galatians 6:1; James 5:19-20).

That’s sort of like our proposed Constitution, in that there is a lot of fancy language, but that is a call to honesty. The truth the convention sees is that if someone never comes to church, we cannot honestly count him as a member. If someone gives no evidence of being saved / regenerated, we ought not tell them they are by admitting them as members of the church. If someone sins like the lost world, and will not repent, we should take a stand, for their sake. That’s what this resolution is about. These messengers realize the church is weak and worldly. And, they realize that the answer to that can only be found in the Scripture. So, I want to focus, first on the definition of a church. That is where this resolution starts, with a call to work for “regenerate church membership.” What does that mean? Well, to be regenerate is to be saved. So, this is saying a true New Testament church will not knowingly admit people who are lost. This is in keeping with the Bible, of course. The letters to the churches in the New Testament are addressed to those who are “saints” and “love Jesus.” In April, I gave a sermon on the importance of church membership, which I won’t repeat. But, I would hope we could agree that formal church membership is the example of the New Testament, and is important. Also, I would hope we would agree to restrict church membership to Christians. To me, that is self-evident. You don’t have to think a lot about that one. But, this brings us to the second page of the proposed Constitution and the requirements for joining our church. One objection is that these are too strict because we can’t see someone’s heart. And, we can’t. But the Bible says that if someone doesn’t understand the gospel / if they have not trusted in the death of Christ alone for salvation, received by faith alone accompanied by repentance, the Bible says they aren’t saved (1Cor. 16:22). Paul warns us in Galatians (1:6f) against a “different gospel” that doesn’t save, but brings a curse. “With the heart (Rom. 10:10) one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” But, if the confession is not the true Gospel / if the Jesus these people believe in isn’t the Jesus of the Bible, they aren’t saved and shouldn’t be members of a church. If someone is in open rebellion against God, and will not repent and turn, then there is a problem with the heart as they have not believed unto righteousness. If someone wants to join this church, and I learn they run a strip joint in Biloxi, I would like to ask them to repent and close it before they are admitted to membership.

Basically, there are five membership steps, and let me tell you how we anticipate this working. An individual would indicate a desire to join our church, and we would ask them to fill out an application form and agree to abide by what this church believes. A mature believer will have to talk to them and make sure that they can give a credible witness to being saved. That could be done when they first express an interest in membership, or on a home visit later. And, I want you to understand this is being done now. When someone tells me that they (“”) “are saved,” or even have a membership in a Southern Baptist Church, that doesn’t mean much by itself. I have had people come down seeking membership who did not understand the Gospel. I have asked them how people are saved / what the gospel is / how people go to heaven, and the answer is along the lines of “Well, you just try to keep the golden rule, and live by the 10 Commandments, and hope you’re good enough when you die.” I’m sorry, you don’t have to be able to see the heart to understand that person is not saved. They don’t need to transfer a membership, they need to repent, believe in Jesus as the only way of salvation through faith alone. Then, they should join the church through baptism. Anything less is to refuse to love them enough to tell them the truth. The most recent experience I had like that resulted in the individual stopping to examine his heart. He came to the realization he was lost, even though he was a church member. He professed Christ. I, then, had the privilege of baptizing him. This membership interview is not a theological exam, or an interrogation. It is simply a spiritual talk to see if the person understands the gospel, and can give some evidence of true faith and repentance. And, I believe this is commanded in the Scripture.

For that, I would refer you to the little book we recently studied, 2 John. Starting at V9, John says, “Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. [If someone does not hold to the correct doctrine about Christ, he “does not have God,” i.e. he is not saved.] He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. [That implies that you can tells something about their salvation by their doctrine.] If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; (V11) for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.” That is a serious verse that we ought to take seriously. John is saying there are false Christians out there, and we should not accept them just because they claim some relationship with Jesus. Remember, James (2:19) says that demons believe. They have a relationship with Jesus; it’s just not a good one. We are to evaluate everyone before we affirm them as believers or assist them in any ministry. A failure to do that leaves us accountable to God for the damage these lost people do in Christ’s church. If we aren’t supposed to let them into our house, I don’t see how you can let them into your church. And, this is established, time-honored Baptist practice. John L. Dagg was one of the 6 or 8 men regarded as the Founders of the Southern Baptist Convention in 1845. He wrote the first systematic theology book by a Baptist in America. That book was a standard text in our seminaries for many years. In fact, it is still required reading in some. He also wrote a book on church order and organization. He said this, (“”) “In order that the church may judge whether a candidate is duly qualified for [church] membership, they should hear his profession of faith. … The churches are not infallible judges, being unable to search the heart; but they owe it to the cause of Christ, and to the candidate himself, to exercise the best judgment of which they are capable. To receive anyone on a mere profession of words, without any effort to ascertain whether he understands and feels what he professes, is unfaithfulness to his interests, and the interests of religion.” In other words, to receive someone as a member without a look at their life and doctrine is bad for them and bad for the church. The apostle John commands us not to affirm or aid anyone who does not have “this doctrine.” OK, what is this doctrine? Well, remember the point is to have regenerate church membership, i.e. members who are actually saved. So, the doctrine at issue is what you must know to be saved, not your view of end times or the seven days of creation. You must believe in the God of the Bible: Father, Son, and Spirit. You must believe that Jesus is God. You must believe that you are a lost, condemned sinner who needs a Savior. You believe that Jesus is the Savior who died bearing your sins. You must believe that forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life is offered to you (Eph. 2:8-9) by grace through faith, and not by works or human effort. You must understand that, in receiving salvation, you surrender yourself to Jesus as both Savior and Lord with a commitment to obey as a disciple. And, you must believe the Bible: including such things as Jesus was born of a virgin, and rose bodily from the grave, ascended to heaven, and is one day coming back to judge the living and the dead. And, this examination is necessary because there are not only Baptist church members who don’t believe those things; there are Southern Baptist churches who don’t teach them. By God’s grace, there aren’t a large number of liberal and apostate Southern Baptist churches, but there are some. So, one who is a mature believer – an elder, a deacon, a faithful Sunday School teacher – should have a spiritual conversation with the person wanting to join this church. They should, then, vouch for them to the elder board. The candidate doesn’t have to appear before the board, but the board has to know that someone trustworthy has talked to them, and believes they are saved. And, Tony and I should not be the only ones making that decision, for the protection of the church. So, the elder board helps both positively and negatively. If there is someone I am a little concerned about, I can ask another elder to go talk to them. Or, if someone on the elder board knows that the candidate does own a strip club in Biloxi, we can deal with that before we admit them as a member. Remember, our witness as a church, as well as individuals, is at stake here. The candidate for membership will be asked to fill out the application form, appear before the church for affirmation, be recommended to the Elders after a brief spiritual interview. Also, we would ask them to complete a brief new member’s class. The order of all that is not restricted, in an effort to retain some flexibility. In this, the membership application can be easily modified by the Elders, and the one thing I might consider adding would be to advise people that an elder or deacon would be happy to help them fill it out.

Admission to membership is, of course, closely tied to what is called “Church Discipline.” That’s not the best term for it, because the purpose is restoration. This is the command of Paul in Galatians (Gal. 6:1), “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.” And, this goes on all the time, without people even knowing it. Someone cares enough about a Christian brother to go and tell them what they are doing isn’t what a Christian should do. Then, that Christian brother repents, and the relationship is restored. This is what we are supposed to do for each other. This happens all the time, and no one else knows about it, which is how it ought to be. At issue is what do you do with someone who persistently, over time, repeatedly refuses to repent. Please turn with me to Matt. 18.

To get us from membership to church discipline, I want to address for just a moment the idea that we are never supposed to make any judgments of another. Understand, that is a secular, worldly idea, not a biblical one. If you go back 100 years, good judgment and discernment were virtues. Those were respected and sought. So, the idea that any judgment is bad is wrong. Certainly, there is bad, inappropriate judgment, but there is also proper judging. We are not the final judge and do not determine anyone’s eternal salvation. So, whether it is in admission to membership or in discipline, we don’t really tell someone they are lost. We can’t know that. But, we can know whether or not they are acting like it. So, in love we are to go to them and say how worried we are for them, because we don’t see evidence of salvation in their life. That doesn’t always mean they are lost, but often / even usually, they are. But, that is why we are called to remove them from membership, and that does not indicate we know for certain whether or not they are saved. When Jesus says (Matt. 7:1), ““Judge not, that you be not judged,” He is talking about self-righteous, ungodly judgment. That is obvious if you keep reading in that passage for He then says (Matt. 7:5-7) to first get the speck out of your own eye. Then, you will be able to see clearly to help your brother get the plank out of his eye. It is not right, nor biblical, nor loving, nor Christian to leave the brother with the plank in his eye. Love demands we help him with it – love for him, and love for Christ. So, if we never make a judgment as to whether or not a plank is there / if we just pretend we don’t see it, how is that showing Christian love? The point is that we are to, first, deal with the sin in our own life, and then we will be able to go with sincerity and humility to help our brother. Then, in the next verse the Lord tells us to not give the holy to dogs, or pearls to swine. To do that requires we judge who are dogs and pigs. We want to be generous and forgiving and gracious and merciful in our judgment, but we cannot escape the command to judge. In John 7 (:24), in fact, Jesus commands us to “judge with righteous judgment.” Jesus was our example, and He made judgments about people. He was gracious and good to the repentant sinner (John 8:11), and he drove the unrepentant merchants out of the temple (John 2:15). And, both are equally manifestations of His perfect love which puts God’s honor, purposes, and causes first. But you might object, “He could see the heart.” OK, Paul says to the Corinthian church (1Cor. 5:12-13), “What have I to do with judging those also who are outside? [The obvious answer is ‘Nothing.’ God judges them. Then, Paul goes on to say,] “Do you not judge those who are inside?” [And what is the implied answer? Yes! Of course!] Therefore ‘put away from yourselves the evil person.’ ”

The most important text to deal with is Matt. 18 (:15-20), so I want us to quickly walk through this. V15 > “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.” That’s what is supposed to happen. We are to care about one another enough to help each other stay out of sin. As a candidate joins this church, we would make it clear that we are serious about this. We understand that the seductiveness of sin can trap any one of us. And, we understand that sin can and will mess up our own judgment. So, while we are in our right mind / before sin makes us crazy, we ask each other to do this for us. Christians do this for one another. It is, after all, church discipline, not pastor discipline. What sins should be dealt with in this way? Well, most simple personal offenses should usually just be forgiven and never mentioned in the first place, as (1Pet. 4:8) “love covers a multitude of sins.” But, when the sin is public, or serious, or damaging to the individual, the church, or the witness of Christ, we should go to them. We should, in love, and with all the gracious humility we can muster, plead with them for repentance. Often, that is all that is needed. So, what sins need to come under church discipline? Those that are public, serious, those you cannot forgive, and this is most important, sins that are unrepentant. A person does not come under church discipline / you are not removed from the church role for adultery, fornication, lying, cheating, stealing, homosexuality, axe murder, genocide, or nuclear war. You come under church discipline for a willful, persistent refusal to repent. And, that could involve the sin of gossip. If, month after month, you continue in gossip, and will not stop doing damage and causing division in the Bride of Christ, we have not choice but to act. And, we have to act with sufficient force and firmness to stop the damage. At any stage, repentance and turning from sin leads to restoration, and the process is over. So, V16 > “If he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ ” If the person will not listen, you go with witnesses. That is to protect you and the other person. These witness are to verify that sin is indeed occurring, and that the person is unrepentant. If either is not true, it’s over. And, sometimes, the witnesses might decide the whole deal is trivial; so, just forget about it. If so, you do. And, if the person listens to the group – again, repentance brings restoration. V17 > “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.” I think the best plan for this is what we are recommending, i.e. that the church leaders get involved here and try to call the person to repentance. After they work with the sinning one, he will not hear, then the church leadership is to inform the church as a whole that we all need to seek this person out and plead with them to turn from whatever is the ongoing sin. You see, there is a step-wise ratcheting up of the pressure. And, if you have ever been involved in this, you know this takes months, occasionally years. Finally, back to V17 > “If he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.” The person is hardened and simply will not listen to anyone, we are to treat him like a “heathen and tax collector.” What does that mean? What do you do with pagans and tax collectors? You try to get them in church and hear the word so that the Lord will soften their hearts. But, you also recognize they are, as best as we can judge, outside the covenant community of faith. You don’t let them teach, or serve, or speak or vote in business meetings. When you see them, you are kind and cordial, but you don’t enter into intimate fellowship with them. Instead, when you see them, you plead with them to turn from sin. And, you do not let them remain church members. Why not? What is the harm in leaving people like this on the role? The answer is simple. Church membership is a statement by this congregation that we believe that person is redeemed. Remember, the church is a body of people who are saved. But, Christians are characterized by a lifestyle of repentance (1John 1:9). So, when someone will not repent, there is real doubt as to their eternal fate. And, it is sin for us not to warn them that they are danger. Usually, considerable time should elapse at each stage before moving on to the next one. And, I think you can go back and forth between some stages for a while. We want repentance, so we must give God time to produce that. But, there also are instances when discipline must move quickly, for the protection of the innocent, or the church (Titus 3:10). And, of course, there are special circumstances, such as a person under discipline being disruptive. Then, we would have to ask them not to come back. Another special situation would be the wife of a man under discipline. She still has to strive to be a godly wife. This is hard, and gut-wrenching, which is why Jesus goes on to say (V18-20)), “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” That’s not primarily talking about a prayer meeting, rather the subject is dealing with sin in the church. Jesus knows that this is very difficult, so He gives us this assurance of being with us in this action. If you do it right, the discipline decision you make is verified by heaven. Now, turn back a few pages to Matt. 13. This Constitution strives to follow that pattern, ultimately, if required, leading to the termination of membership by the body that voted to give it to him, i.e. the congregation. To answer the charge that this is some new idea or interpretation, at least for Baptists, I would go back to John L. Dagg, one of the founders of the SBC. He said, “When discipline leaves a church, Christ goes with it.” That is very strong, but many would agree with him. Another thing I have heard that I want to mention is the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13. Some have said that this forbids removing people from the church, but I would suggest that is not the proper view. Start with V24, which says that this is a parable about the Kingdom of heaven. Then, Jesus tells the parable of the weeds being in the field, and the owner not separating them from the wheat until the harvest. But, Jesus goes on to explain what this means. V37 > The sower is the Son of Man. V38 > the field is the (?) world, not the church. V39 > The harvest is the end. V41 > the servants who tend the field, do the reaping are (?) angels. Nowhere is the church mentioned. Nowhere is church discipline mentioned. This is a warning of the judgment to come on the lost in the world at large when Christ returns to establish His kingdom. And, honesty requires that I point out that – if this parable applies to church discipline – then we have a contradiction in the Scripture, and we can chuck the whole deal, go home and turn out the lights. Church discipline – including the removal from membership if necessary – is in Matt. 18, and 1 Cor. 5 & 6, and Romans 16 (:17-18), and 2 Thessalonians (3:14), and so on. And as far as the argument that no other Baptist church is doing this, that is obviously not true by the resolution we read earlier. That resolution is a clear call to return to the church discipline and integrity that once characterized our convention. Capital Hill Baptist and FBC, Durham, N. C. are both prominent churches that have reinstituted biblical church discipline after a lapse of many years, and there are others. This return to discipline in Baptist churches even made the Wall Street Journal this past January. The article was, of course, a distorted hatchet job, just as you would expect from the secular pr

ess. But, this shows that there is a major recovery of biblical principals going on in this area right now. One of the down sides of being a preacher is that your wife expects you to live like you preach. The world is looking at us. We say we believe the Scripture, and they expect us to live by it. If we claim to follow the Bible, we cannot escape the commands to deal with sin in the fellowship, even to the point of removing the unrepentant person from the church role.

Another issue of concern is the termination of membership when someone has been absent for a year. That is determined by looking at giving and Sunday School records, as those are the best ways we have to identify who is here. But, this is similar to church discipline, as those who are continually absent are in rebellion against the command (Heb. 10:25) to never forsake assembling with the church. Also, this is like church discipline in that you never hear of the cases of restoration, when the brother repents and is restored. You only hear about those who refuse to repent, and they are angry about it. You hear about the people who have gotten letters like this, and have gotten angry, because they have no intention of becoming faithful. But, you never hear about the other side. There are people in this church who got the letter, and said, “Hmm, they are right. I need to be back in church.” Those people returned and are now faithful and are growing in Christ.

Let me read the letter we send out to you.

Dear Church Member,
I pray this letter finds you well in both soul and body. However, we are concerned as our records show you have had no contact with us in the past year. Perhaps you just need some encouragement. If so, let me say that we would like nothing better than have you again be part of our fellowship. Further, we understand these records may be in error, so we would appreciate your letting us know if you have worshipped with us recently. Certainly, if there has been a change in your condition that prevents your attendance, we would like to know in order to pray for you and minister to you in what way we can.

If you have attended worship services or Sunday School with us in the last year, please let us know that. If you are now unable to attend because of illness, travel, military service, or due to some other cause, please let us know that as well. It is our desire to do what we can to minister to you. If you have moved, or are now attending another church, we would appreciate that information as well, and hope that God will bless you in your new church family.

Our desire is to obey Christ’s commission and “make disciples.” We would love for you to be actively involved in our fellowship. We have many exciting new opportunities for growth and service. However, we believe that active involvement in a local church is a biblical necessity for spiritual health and growth. Regular attendance in services and contact with the community of faith is good for both the Christian and the church. So, membership is both a privilege and a duty. Our bylaws call for removal from the membership of any individual who has not attended in the past twelve (12) months. Of course, this requirement is waived in the case of invalids, chronic illness, long-term care of ill family, military service, or any other justifiable cause of non-attendance. Please come and worship with us.

Our bylaws require we hear from you within 90 days from the date of this letter if you wish to remain a member of Michael Memorial. If our records are in error, please excuse this letter and help us correct them. If we can minister to you in any way, please let us know. We look forward to seeing you in church.

Now why should we ever send a letter like to anyone? Why should we care if there are people on the role who have been dead for 30 years? Well, the first thing is that, if we don’t do something, they are still going to be on the role in 200years. But, there are some better reasons. First, It is sin (Heb. 10:25). It is never loving, or kind, or helpful to approve sin, if only by acting like it is OK. Second, it is not spiritually good for a believer to be isolated from the Body of Christ. Without worship, the word, service, and fellowship they won’t be growing spiritually. They are dodging the accountability of the fellowship. So, if you really care about them, you will encourage them to what is spiritually healthy and beneficial. Also, if they are just allowed to wander off, that isn’t showing love for them, and, (1John 4:20) how can we claim to love God if we don’t really love our brother by wanting the best for him? To let these people remain on the role confuses them about their own spiritual state, as we are approving it. Also, this confuses the lost, watching world. These folks – at the moment anyway – are not interested in the things of God, and to retain them as members in good standing is bad for the witness of Christ. This is part of the reason the church now is indistinguishable from the world. And frankly, this puts the pastor in a difficult spot. He is supposed to be the shepherd watching over these people. How can he do that, when he doesn’t even know who they are, and they don’t know him? How can you shepherd sheep who aren’t part of the flock? To accept non-attenders as members in good standing is simply bad for them, bad for the church, and bad for the witness of Christ. Just from a practical standpoint, how can we give people voting rights in business meetings when they have no idea what the condition of the church is, because they haven’t been here for a year?

The third major concern is regarding the elder structure. This is unfamiliar to modern Baptist churches, but that unfamiliarity is something that has developed only in the last 100 years. At the time the SBC was founded, this was the normal structure of most churches. The first president of the SBC, W. B. Johnson, published an article strongly endorsing elder rule. And, we would be electing Baptist elders, not Presbyterian. We have talked in the past about elders, and deacons, and their qualifications and responsibilities. In the New Testament, the elder may also be called “bishop,” “overseer,” or “pastor.” Those words all refer to the same group of people. But, most Baptist churches have a ruling body that blurs the distinctions. There is only one group to lead the church, referred to as deacons. Inevitably, something has to give. If the emphasis in that group is on the oversight ministry, the service ministry suffers. If the emphasis is on the service ministry, the oversight suffers. That’s exactly what our deacons encountered. After investigation, mediation, and prayer, I really believe the Elder system is best, primarily because it is biblical. And, it has many practical advantages. There is help with the workload / the wisdom of many counselors (Prov. 15:22), and the power of group prayer. This promotes confidence in the congregation and helps share the burden of criticism. The elders serve at the pleasure of the congregation, and may be dismissed with proper procedure at any time – including the ministers. We remain a Baptist church. The ultimate authority is you. Of course, there is nothing in the Bible about sheep leading shepherds, so I would say the best thing to do is to elect godly men and then trust and follow them. And, if you find you can’t trust and follow them, get rid of them and find men you can trust and follow. The congregation can vote whatever it wants, whenever it wants. The only qualification that is unique to elders and not shared by deacons is the man must be “able to teach.” There is no reason to interpret that narrowly, so I believe this would be any man skilled in handling the word and able to teach, whether that be to large or small groups, or even individuals. So, while elders would be ordained as elders, this does not restrict the eldership to men were think of as “ministers” or “preachers.”

So, when it comes to elders, I really want to just share my own experience with you. I came up from the pew, not through seminary. And, as I read the Bible, there is no such thing as an elevated, special class of ministers in the New Testament. But, that is what has developed in many places. I have been in a number of Baptist churches over the years, and have seen this in action as the pastor forced his way into making every decision. I believe that the situation of one man alone on top of a pyramid of others under him is abnormal and corrupting, yet that is exactly where many Baptist churches are. I have seen real problems develop precisely because the pastor saw himself as king. Now, I am 58, and in good health. I plan to be here as the Lord allows, but I am eventually not going to be here. However, I have children who want to live on this coast, and I would like for them to have a church to attend that is run by the Bible, and not by a minister who sees himself as a cut above everyone else. I think elder rule is not only the biblical model, but is actually the best defense against an imperial pastorate in which the minister – or ministers – think they are kings and fall into the trap of lording it over their flock. This is actually not much of a change from the leadership structure as it is now, except to make the Elder Board report to the church rather than the deacons. The elder board, then, is a group of men to lead the church, in which the pastor has only one vote, like anyone else. And, the constitution requires that the majority of members of the Board not be receiving any sort of pay from the church. That is for the protections of the people. So, as you can see, this is not some sort of ministerial power grab. If anything, this is attempting to block the pastor from assuming power we see as unbiblical and improper.

Tonight, I have tried to show you two things: that we can defend this constitution as being thoroughly in line with Baptist church governance, both historical and current. Then secondly, and more importantly, we can defend this constitution as being thoroughly Scriptural. I know this has been long, and I’m sure many of you have still more questions and issues. And, that is good. The only thing that is not good is to let the question go unanswered. As we close, I just want to run two passages of Scripture by you. The first is Heb. 13:17, which warns the pastor or elder that he is going to have to stand before God and give account for the job he did “watching out for their souls.” As a church leader, I am going to stand before God and answer for how I treated His church. The longer I am in the ministry, the more this becomes a matter of genuine, serious concern for me. If I am accountable for a flock, I have to know who is in the flock. Doesn’t that make sense? That means we can’t have sheep that never are part of the flock, and are strangers to the shepherd. If I admit someone to the church who is obviously not a Christian, when a few simple questions would make the matter clear, I am going to have to answer for that. How can I be a shepherd and admit a wolf to the flock by sheer carelessness? Even if this lost person is not a wolf / even if he is just sincerely wrong, I have told this man he is saved / going to heaven / reconciled to God when he is not. I have not “watched out for his soul.” And, I am accountable for the damage he does in the church. If I fail to obey the inescapable biblical commands about church discipline, I am running Christ’s church like I want, rather than as He commands. That damages the fellowship and the testimony of Christ. So, that is not going to make our Lord happy.

And, this is an accountability for you as well. The other passage is Ezek. 33 that says a watchman who fails to warn others of approaching danger is going to held responsible by God for their deaths or loss. If you are saved, you know the truth, and you have a debt to the lost to warn them (Rom. 1:14). If we do not warn the lost church member of his danger / if we do not warn the non-attender of his sin and his danger of spiritual loss and stagnation / if we do not warn the unrepentant believer of the consequences of his sin, we do not love God, or others, and we will have to answer to our Lord. Obedience is crucial for blessing. I want the blessing of God on this church, and I think that means we have to run His church the way He tells us. Now, I know there is an awful lot of passion and emotion regarding all this, and that is not necessarily bad. I would ask you to take that passion and turn it into prayer. Don’t pray that everyone would come around to agree with you. Rather pray that all of us would find the wisdom to understand the teachings of Christ in the Scripture and put them into action. Pray that all of us would come around to agree with Christ.

As I said at the start, we will have an open discussion of all these issues next Sunday evening. I appreciate your being here tonight, and do hope that you will come back. There are 50 copies of the text of this sermon, which I will place in the foyer. If you would like to pick one up to review, pray over, and consider, please do. Or, the text will be online or available through the church office sometime tomorrow. Please remember that the issue is what the Scripture says. I have great sympathy with those who don’t like member screening and discipline and all that. You have no idea how much I don’t like being involved in those things. But, I want to be able to stand before God and say that I at least made an effort / weak and fallible, but still an effort to follow the Bible as closely as I could understand it. I pray that we would all have that commitment.

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