Note 1:21ff especially. Enjoy 🙂

The following discussion was from earlier this afternoon, and I believe clearly shows the common bankruptcy found in Islamic apologists – they can’t defend their own text, and they won’t answer questions. I invite you to examine the conversation and see for yourself.

[RazorsKiss] Surah 53:36 Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses- (YUS)
[RazorsKiss] Surah 53:37 And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?- (YUS)
[RazorsKiss] Surah 53:38 Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another; (YUS)
[RazorsKiss] .kjv gal 6:2
[Bible] Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. (King James Version)
[RazorsKiss] So, beyinsiz – why is your Qu’ran contradicting Scripture?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss it doesn’t. It corrects the contradictions. That’s it.
[RazorsKiss] Surah 3:84 Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between on e and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).”
[RazorsKiss] The Books?
[RazorsKiss] Seems to me that’s one of the Books spoken on in the Qu’Ran.
[RazorsKiss] *of in
[RazorsKiss] Why does your Qu’Ran contradict it?
[RazorsKiss] .kjv exo 6:6
[Bible] Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgements: (King James Version)
[beyinsiz] aligning*
[RazorsKiss] Seems as if God himself does the same.
[Delano] Muslims and Christians who dispute one another’s holy books only “prove” that the other doesn’t apply the same critical thinking to their own scriptures as they do to their opponent’s
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss A contradiction only happens with something that has COHERENCE. It’s true that the content of the bible is of full errors, historical information.
[RazorsKiss] Delano: One says the other book is inspired, yet contradicts it.
[RazorsKiss] That’s telling, is it not?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss how many tellings in the bible are existing ?
[Delano] Oh, very much :o)
[RazorsKiss] Paul tells the Galatians to do something the Qu’Ran forbids.
[beyinsiz] if there are 60 bibles available, it’s likely that quran would treat them each as differently ?
[RazorsKiss] Look at the greek, and then look at your arabic.
[RazorsKiss] compare the two, see if they mean the same thing.
[Delano] Er,
[Delano] He couldn’t be able to anyway
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why would something that Paul told would be a divine commandment. Paul cannot make any divine decision, He is not a prophet.
[RazorsKiss] Galatians 6:2 allhlwn ta barh bastazete kai outws anaplhrwsete ton nomon tou xristou (GRK)
[beyinsiz] He wasn’t even an apostle of Jesus
[Delano] The Qur’an is written in a classical form of Arabic that modern Arabs do not understand
[Delano] Just like modern English speakers do not understand Anglo-Saxon
[RazorsKiss] I know several Christians who read arabic just fine.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Galatians is an epistle that he wrote up. It’s not the word of God, nor that of Jesus. Come up with something else
[RazorsKiss] As well as Koine.
[Delano] Modern, yes
[Delano] Classical Arabic is different :o)
[RazorsKiss] No, Quranic.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss yes I can read classical arabic, koine greek, latin , hebrew with diacriticals.
[Delano] Same with Greek… modern is different to Koine and Attic
[RazorsKiss] Expressly for the purpose of studying Quranic textual transmission.
[Delano] Although Attic was not used in the NT
[RazorsKiss] Quranic Arabic, and Koine.
[Delano] beyinsiz, impressive
[beyinsiz] what textual transmission ? there has only been 1 manuscript and the bible had like 300 according to the decree at the Nicea Council.
[Delano] beyinsiz, which Latin? Classic or Old Church?
[RazorsKiss] Not according to the Uthmanic revision, no there hasn’t.
[beyinsiz] Delano Clasical, the church doesn’t alter remarkably except the the pronounciation. the grammar is the same.
[Delano] beyinsiz, and more vocabularly
[Delano] Biblical-based vocabulary
[RazorsKiss] Ibn Masud’s version is the foundation for the modern-day Sunni-Shi’ite division.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss yes Uthman was a companion of Prophet unlike Paul wasn’t of Jesus
[RazorsKiss] Same generation, and was indeed an apostle – though one born late.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss that’s inaccurate and non sense to the extent of textual transmission claim. If you claim there is any other version of the quran, can you please show it ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss it still doesn’t make him an apostle
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TEUMkkSHek
[beyinsiz] the bible says they were 12 you say something else
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I dont want a youtube video. show me a manuscript
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – yes it does – and was recognized as one by the other apostles – the apostle to the gentiles, as we both are.
[beyinsiz] you make it up you find one !
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss by no means it doesn’t. There is no one verse that Paul is regarded as an apostle.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – the video is one by Dr. James White.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Why would I belive in him ? It’s you who claim that there is another shii quran and I am asking you to show it up !
[RazorsKiss] Concerning the Uthmanic revision, and Ibn Masud’s manuscript he refused to give up.
[RazorsKiss] and, by certain traditions, was beaten for until he died.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss It doesn’t make any sense when you just speculate about the duplication of a text once you dont provide any clear evidence and yet I can show you a dozen for the bible ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss where are the manuscripts you claim for transmissions ? where are they ?
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1713
[beyinsiz] I see no manuscript differentiation on this page.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss either you show me a manuscript that DIFFERS from the one we have today
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz – no manuscript variations exist in scripture that affect any major dotrine.
[Bonz] http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00.html QURAN NOT GIVEN TO MUHAMMED
[Bonz] But Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: sort of hard, since uthman burned them all, isn’t it?
[RazorsKiss] almost like islam had something to hide.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you even know that not on the basis of quran but some narrations ? Do you believe in the muslim narrations ? are you muslim yourself ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz Quran was changed several times
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss answer my question Do you believe in islamic narrations ?
[RazorsKiss] Not to mention the fact that the textual history of Islam is one of protection and central authoritative copying, past that date
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss answer my question Do you believe in islamic narrations ?
[RazorsKiss] and before that, all variatiosn were burned, so as to erase any variants.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You quoted an historical even on the basis of islamic narrations namely hadith. Do you believe in them to be true ?
[beyinsiz] event *
[beyinsiz] He cant answer the question
[RazorsKiss] Of course not, they contradict Scripture.
[RazorsKiss] I was finishing my own point, thanks 😀
[RazorsKiss] Care to respond to my last ones?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then how come you claimed that Uthman burned them from your point of view ???????????????????
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You first must justify the ground of your knowledge if you don’t believe what you claim, why should I take care to answer ?
[RazorsKiss] Why do you claim that Paul wasn’t an apostle, when your Quran commands you to consider Scripture as from Allah?
[RazorsKiss] Scripture says otherwise.
[beyinsiz] Inge then what part does he like to include and what others he likes to exclude ? what is the standart for that ? 🙂
[Bonz] beyinsiz He can use any standard he wants to.
[Inge] beyinsiz: *shrug* 🙂
[RazorsKiss] I don’t believe that they are spiritual truth – but I can see historical accounts.
[Bonz] beyinsiz And you have to defend against ANY standard
[Colin^] Bonz this is way over your head. I suggest you sit it out. :o)
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss There is no such verse that would make someone assume that Paul was an apostle. It’s the epistles he wrote which are not divinely revealed. There are many christian epistles in that time
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You couldn’t answer a simple question I asked. Yet you BASED YOUR CLAIM on that historical event. Your mask FELL DOWN
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] next question
[RazorsKiss] *being mentioned
[Bonz] beyinsiz You lose.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You based your opinion on the fact that you assumed the narration to be true and now you can’t answer. Did you lie there ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz The Quran is not inspired. Muhammed wasn’t a prophet of Jesu
[RazorsKiss] I don’t consider the Hadith to be a true reflection of spiritual things, no.
[beyinsiz] Did you lie when you were purposefully claimed that Uthman burned them and yet you didn’t take it a granted fact ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz He didn’t asume it to be true
[beyinsiz] This is what your faith could be like !
[RazorsKiss] I do consider them useful for an examination of the historical situation.
[beyinsiz] Bonz then why did he say he did burn it ?
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] he didn’t say he MAY HAVE burnt
[Inge] Bonz: are you arguing *for* a Christian?
* Inge takes Bonz’ temperature and calls 911
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why would I answer your question and waste my time to discuss with you brother? You lied, why would I consider it worthwhile ?
[RazorsKiss] Uthman burnt every variant of the Quran, save Ibn Masud’s
[Delano] Inge, sometimes a man must choose the lesser of the two evils.
[beyinsiz] You have to explain to me something first. I will not just skip it.
[RazorsKiss] and Ibn Masud died for withholding it.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Do you believe this to be true, and considering it a prophetical narration ?
[Bonz] Inge Nope, against a Muslim. beyinsiz wants to have his cake and eat it as well.
[beyinsiz] say yes or no
[beyinsiz] :DDDDD
[RazorsKiss] I don’t consider a proven false prophet to be true in any way, no.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then why did you claim that to be true ????????
[beyinsiz] then you lied !
[beyinsiz] you busted
[Delano] Inge, not if they support the bigger evil ;o)
[RazorsKiss] I do, however, think the Hadith literature is an interesting study in history.
[Colin^] beyinsiz is busted, he doesn’t obey the Quran
[Colin^] :o(
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you lost my friend. It’s your hatred, illogical faulty manner that gave you away.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[Bonz] beyinsiz It’s not HIS fault that your holy books are wrong
[Delano] Well, to his RazorsKiss, I don’t think RazorsKiss is a hateful fellow
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss sorry I don’t regard to discuss with some person who even lies in the name of his argument (?).
[Delano] Er
[Bonz] beyinsiz YOU are the illogical one
[Delano] Well, to his defense, I don’t think RazorsKiss is a hateful fellow
[Colin^] beyinsiz isn’t a Submitter…merely a beliver,shame face belong to him
[beyinsiz] everbody call in witness to what this man had done to himself.
[beyinsiz] Colin^ why ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz He won. You lost.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] Bonz if yo u say so.
[Delano] beyinsiz, in fact, RazorsKiss has been a lot more civil to you than a lot of other Christians here would have been :o)
[RazorsKiss] All you’re doing is spinning around like a top, sir.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss You first explain as to why you used a prophetical narration as to be historically true when you claimed the person is a false prophet and thus unreliable ??
[RazorsKiss] I consider Mohammed a false prophet, yes.
[beyinsiz] Because it is our first topic to be sort out and without first solving it , it is useless and pointless to skip the other. Why would I do that ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then why did you quote the historical event to be true ?
[RazorsKiss] I don’t even think the authors of the Hadith even consider a mention as such, at all.
[Bonz] beyinsiz Your holy books are wrong. He doesn’t have to believe in them to poiny point out thet they are wrong
[beyinsiz] did you lie ? or did you trust him in that particular time and event ?
[RazorsKiss] Because the uthmanic revision has nothing to do with the prophethood of Mohammed.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss how do you know that ?
[beyinsiz] ??????????????????????
[RazorsKiss] It has to do with the actions of Uthman, and why he did what he did.
[beyinsiz] ??????????????????????
[RazorsKiss] Why did Uthman burn every Quranic variant?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss how do you know that ? are you inspired or do you have other sources of epistemology ?
[beyinsiz] HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ?
[beyinsiz] HOW
[RazorsKiss] It’s attested fact.
[RazorsKiss] http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1713
[beyinsiz] HOW
[RazorsKiss] read this.
[Colin^] beyinsiz Attested FACT!
[RazorsKiss] I gave my source.
[Bonz] beyinsiz And you have to make arguments against the epistles. You can’t just say you don’t think they were prophets
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss but our case is not what I read. It’s what YOU CLAIM AND HOW YOU ATTEST
[RazorsKiss] and, Dr. White talks about it further in the video above, concerning Ibn Masud.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss answer me
[RazorsKiss] *talks
[beyinsiz] Did uthman burn it ? true or false… see he CANT ANSWER IT 🙂
[beyinsiz] YES OR NO
[beyinsiz] ?
[Delano] Heh
[Delano] beyinsiz, relax
[RazorsKiss] True, Uthman burned every variant copy of the Quran.
[Colin^] beyinsiz has his knickers in a knot
[Delano] beyinsiz, you’re not gonna get any point across by getting upset and TYPING ALL IN CAPS
[Colin^] Delano will be after him. :o(
[beyinsiz] how shameful you are to hold such a stupid logical incoherence. and you were going to discuss me something in particular about quran
[RazorsKiss] Except for Ibn Masud’s, given several sources.
[Bonz] beyinsiz You’re only making yourself look stupid
[Delano] beyinsiz, relax please
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss do you that these sources are historically to be true because they are narrated by prophet muhammad ?
[Delano] beyinsiz, you are an intelligent fellow… there’s no need to get emotional
[Bonz] beyinsiz HIS logic is FINE. It is YOUR logic that is faulty
[RazorsKiss] and, Ibn Masud’s defiance, accordign to those same sources, is the source of the Sunni/Shi’ite split today.
[beyinsiz] Delano ok I will take your word
[RazorsKiss] 1) You claim that Paul is not an apostle
[RazorsKiss] 2) This goes against the word of the apostles you do claim to recognize
[RazorsKiss] 3) Your own Quran tells you to consider that book from God, per Surah 3:84, and several others.
[RazorsKiss] 4) You deny what your own Quran tells you – what is denial of the commands of the Quran called?
[beyinsiz] you FIRST claim something else and failed to prove it
[beyinsiz] and got yourself stuck in a VERY VERY BAD THEOLOGICAL DUBMNESS
[beyinsiz] You couldn’t even answer
[beyinsiz] and you couldn’t even back up what you had to swollow ! now what are you enumerating ????????
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you couldn’t build a ground for your theory You couldn’t believe what you said
[RazorsKiss] I’ll go through it again – if you’d quit typing for a minute, you could spare the time to read it.
[RazorsKiss] 1) You claim that Paul is not an apostle
[beyinsiz] You didn’t confirm the information which yourself has provided
[RazorsKiss] 2) This goes against the word of the apostles you do claim to recognize
[RazorsKiss] 3) Your own Quran tells you to consider that book from God, per Surah 3:84, and several others.
[RazorsKiss] 4) You deny what your own Quran tells you – what is denial of the commands of the Quran called?
[RazorsKiss] Do you have an answer that doesn’t involve two dozen exclamation points?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss but the topic is none of what you have enumerated ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss sure I do have a lot
[RazorsKiss] Actually, it was the original topic I bought up.
[beyinsiz] but I will not skip your turn.
[beyinsiz] no we were discussing about the manuscript transmission
[RazorsKiss] YOU skipped all over creation for all sorts of others topics.
[RazorsKiss] *other
[beyinsiz] it’s now your turn to answer my question. It’s my right to ask.
[RazorsKiss] You’ve been asking the whole time.
[beyinsiz] How do you know that Uthman burnt the manuscript ?
[RazorsKiss] I’ve been answering.
[beyinsiz] the other one ? Prove it
[beyinsiz] no you didn’t it
[beyinsiz] How do you know that ?
[RazorsKiss] Burnt which one?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I don’t know. you claim that he did burn one didn’t yo u???????????????
[RazorsKiss] I gave you the source I had for Uthman’s burning of copies.
[RazorsKiss] You keep ignoring it.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I didn’t ask for any reading source. My question was not that.
[beyinsiz] My question is simply relating to your confirmation that if this historical event is true , then do you believe the narrator, the prophet himself to be true ?
[RazorsKiss] the pertinent section: “‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, “A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it.
[RazorsKiss] So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): ‘Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.’ ” (33.23)”
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss do you believe this to be true ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss do you believe this to be true ?
[beyinsiz] I don’t judge the validity of the text. I am only asking you whether you TAKE THIS TO BE TRUE TO PROPOSE IT AS AN EVIDENCE
[RazorsKiss] On what basis do I have to believe that if one historical narration is true, the whole Quran is true?
[beyinsiz] can you understand that ?
[RazorsKiss] The narrator was not Mohammed.
[RazorsKiss] Secondly.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then do you believe the narrator whatever ?
[RazorsKiss] Sahih Al-Bukhari, 6.507, 509-510:
[RazorsKiss] Who is that, beyinsiz?
[beyinsiz] razor do you believe sahih al bukhari ?
[beyinsiz] it’s a muslim.
[beyinsiz] Do you believe a muslim reporter to be true ?
[beyinsiz] ?????????
[RazorsKiss] I believe he was telling the truth about that story, yes.
[beyinsiz] 🙂
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why ?
[RazorsKiss] I don’t tend to disbelieve people simply because they’re muslim.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss then will you believe his other narrations as well ?
[RazorsKiss] Do you disbelieve Sahih Al-Bukhari?
[RazorsKiss] I hear tell he’s a pretty important source.
[RazorsKiss] in fact, one muslim apologist rejected Bukhari’s testimony over this one issue, in a debate with Dr. White.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss ok but here in this very particular event, you take him as an acceptable source regardless of his theological background
[RazorsKiss] Yes, for the third time.
[beyinsiz] Now will you regard his authencity when he narrates miracles of the prophet ?
[beyinsiz] as historical events ?
[beyinsiz] because he has lots of other historical narrations ?
[RazorsKiss] They may be.
[beyinsiz] please answer
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss nooo
[RazorsKiss] Scripture says many false prophets will come, doing signs and wonders.
[RazorsKiss] So Mohammed could easy have done signs and wonders.
[RazorsKiss] *easily
[beyinsiz] you didn’t give any probability to his very particular case. then you must consider the other with certainty on account of the narrator’s authencity
[RazorsKiss] However, he contradicted Scripture.
[RazorsKiss] Which makes him a false prophet in any case.
[RazorsKiss] Further, he was profoundly ignorant of texts he recommends.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss Did you not judge the event’s validity based on the narrator’s validity ? now how come it turned out to be “may” and with uthman you took it granted
[RazorsKiss] If you look through the NT, it’s authors are very knowledgeable of the OT.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you are not answering the question
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: that would have to depend on whether or not Uthman had a tested interest in proving Mohommaed as a prophet, wouldn’t it? 😀
[RazorsKiss] *vested
[beyinsiz] razor if you judge it on the narrator’s authencity as you did with uthman’s action to burn the text, then there are other narrations of him that testify his prophecy, the unity of God, and the blasphemy of christians as HISTORICAL EVENTS
[beyinsiz] will you accept them as well ?
[RazorsKiss] I don’t take every historian to be correct in every instance.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss ok then what made you to accept that and this not ?
[RazorsKiss] Especially not concerning an event central to further himself.
[RazorsKiss] Take Josephus, for example.
[beyinsiz] what is your criterian to consider an account of bukhari to be true and the other not ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss now we are talking about our case. let’s not get distracted
[RazorsKiss] On whether it had any self-interest involved.
[beyinsiz] what is your criterian to consider an account of bukhari to be true and the other not ?
[RazorsKiss] If you read the account, it’s very straight-forward.
[beyinsiz] answer the question please
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss according to what ?
[RazorsKiss] one more, and it’s my turn.
[beyinsiz] straight forward what ?
[RazorsKiss] It’s a very bare-bones, to the facts account.
[RazorsKiss] uthman wanted the texts, he got them, the rest were burned.
[beyinsiz] what is your criterian to judge a buhkhari narration to be straight forward to be true and in others parts that he failed ?
[RazorsKiss] all done.
[RazorsKiss] this is your last question – gimme a sec
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss ok but there are other narrations which are straight forwardly testifying the prophet’s validity and so others ?
[beyinsiz] noooooooooo
[beyinsiz] you didn’t answer it. You PROLONGED IT
* RazorsKiss rolls his eyes
[beyinsiz] still you remained a question unreplied because that’s the last station we may arrive !
[RazorsKiss] I judge the bukhari narration to be true in this instance, because there is no self-interest involved in the account.
[RazorsKiss] I do not care, concerning miracles of mohammed, because it’s a non-issue.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss what self interest could he seek with miracles ?
[RazorsKiss] Your turn, when I get back 😀
[beyinsiz] not it’s such a great issue to determine the scale of accepting a norm in analyzing the data
[RazorsKiss] I said last question, and I meant it.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss we will not skip it
[RazorsKiss] You’ve had a good 15 minutes of cross-ex.
[RazorsKiss] My turn – but I want a break for a minute.
[beyinsiz] no you didn’t answer the question you only made another suspicious answer :=)
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss no way man. you lied
[beyinsiz] you are not answering it
[RazorsKiss] then be suspicious all you want.
[RazorsKiss] I don’t care.
[Bonz] beyinsiz Quran was revised many times
[Bonz] http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4048586,00.html QURAN NOT GIVEN TO MUHAMMED
[Bonz] But Dr Gerd R Puin, a renowned Islamicist at Saarland University, Germany, says it is not one single work that has survived unchanged through the centuries. It may include stories that were written before the prophet Mohammed began his ministry and which have subsequently been rewritten.
[RazorsKiss] bbiam.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss it’s not a suspicion of skepticism. It’s your not FULLY responsing kind of manner and logic
[beyinsiz] you never answer the question fully. How do you know that bukhari was seeking self interest or not ? Is it your beliefs and not the facts ?
[beyinsiz] because you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz It is fact and his belief. All of them were liars or insane
[beyinsiz] Bonz and why the other is not a fact or belief since the judgement is based on the narrator’s id ?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you screwed up both in terms of your FAITH AND FACT KNOWING
[beyinsiz] you are in a worse trouble man than when you set out to prove
[beyinsiz] you never answer the question fully. How do you know that bukhari was seeking self interest or not ? Is it your beliefs and not the facts ?
[RazorsKiss] you had your say.
[RazorsKiss] My turn.
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[RazorsKiss] I started out with the topic of the Quran contradicting the Scriptures.
[beyinsiz] no answer this because you didn’T fully respond. this is childhish sophistry
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[RazorsKiss] You went off on the “one quranic text” rabbit trail.
[RazorsKiss] I refuted it – you grilled me in return.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss and what did you go off with ?
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[beyinsiz] Your ground of knowledge collapsed
[RazorsKiss] So, back to the original question.
[beyinsiz] the original question was How did you know that
[beyinsiz] and we came to this point and now you evade
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss No I am not skipping that until you finally answer my question
[RazorsKiss] Then you’ll be waiting a while.
[beyinsiz] how come your beliefs must be assumed as historical events objectively , please answer
[RazorsKiss] you asked, I answered.
[RazorsKiss] If you don’t like it, that’s not my problem.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss no you didn’t answer that. you said “I believe that” I say then how come your beliefs are just to be considered as historical events
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] ecause you claimed this to be a fact and not a belief, if it’s your beliefs why would I consider to be true objectively ?
[beyinsiz] I will not answer unless you give this a full response
[RazorsKiss] then I suppose you won’t answer.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you can only suppose that you failed to answer the first question I asked
[beyinsiz] I am only doing this to make you seem worse
[RazorsKiss] You may be in the habit of directing every single conversation you have, but I am not in the habit of letting someone else control entire conversations.
[beyinsiz] so that perhaps you will regard to re think what you have done. That will be a good lesson for you
* Delano chuckles
[Bonz] beyinsiz YOU are the one who is evading. Your pretend is not working
[Delano] So it’s a power struggle :op
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books were in mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss I never did that at all. each time I asked the question you altered the topic to something else.
* Colin^ giggles at the dualing egos
[beyinsiz] you consciously prolonged it and now you evade
[organicwrk] That does it. I’m pulling the car over.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books are mentioned in surah 3:84?
[Bonz] beyinsiz Why are you AFRAID to answer RazorsKiss ?
[beyinsiz] you say you claim that because you believe this thing to be true ? and I am asking why your beliefs must be regarded as historical facts ?
[RazorsKiss] It’s because he knows his prophet was ignorant of the NT.
[beyinsiz] what kind of faith and fact appreciation is that ?
[RazorsKiss] not to mention of the Hebrew OT.
[beyinsiz] because you say you claim that because you believe this thing to be true ? and I am asking why your beliefs must be regarded as historical facts ?
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books are mentioned in surah 3:84?
[beyinsiz] answer the question dont flee
[beyinsiz] you are fleeing from it
[beyinsiz] because you say you claim that because you believe this thing to be true ? and I am asking why your beliefs must be regarded as historical facts ?
[RazorsKiss] It’s not ego, by the by.
[RazorsKiss] This is called “scattershot apologetics”
[beyinsiz] razor then why do you consider your own person beliefs that they must be regarded as historical facts ? Must I believe the way you do to understand the truth ?
[RazorsKiss] Throw as many objections as humanly possible at your opponent, and try to find one, by volume or ignorance, he cannot answer.
[deja_vu] beyonisz is using ‘apologist techniques’ to beat back Razorskiss
[RazorsKiss] Actually, it’s just being rude.
[RazorsKiss] Unfortunately, some people consider that an apologetic.
[beyinsiz] If that’s the case then why do you find it worth to ask a question since it’s all up to beliefs ? not logic ?
[Bonz] beyinsiz HE DID NOT SAY IT IS TRUE.
[beyinsiz] yes he did say it true. Bonz
[beyinsiz] he said uthman burnt it
[beyinsiz] I said how
[beyinsiz] he said bukhari reported it
[beyinsiz] I said do you believe him
[beyinsiz] he kept not answering for like 5 minutes or something
[beyinsiz] then he said the prophet was a fake
[beyinsiz] I said then how come do you believe in his narrator
[Bonz] It doesn’t mater if him. All he has to do is QUOTE him
[beyinsiz] he then waited a bit and said this one is ok . then I said why not the other, the one on his validity etc ?
[RazorsKiss] Actually, you asked if I thought the prophet was true.
[Bonz] It does not matter if he believes him
[RazorsKiss] Which had nothing to do with Bukhari.
[beyinsiz] he said it may have that he could show miracles giving some account for that . then I questioned his probability comment on that he didn’t answer as to his double standart
[RazorsKiss] But, regardless, I’m getting off the objection-go-round until you answer a question.
[beyinsiz] and then I asked him how did he know that he said this to be true ? he said HE BELIEVES SO
[Bonz] beyinsiz So YOU avoided the issue. “then I said why not the other, the one on his validity etc ?”
[RazorsKiss] I went 15-20 minutes fielding objections.
[RazorsKiss] Yet, beyinsiz can’t seem to answer one. Very telling for the truth of Islam, isn’t it?
[beyinsiz] then I said how come his beliefs could be facts objectively to be taken true ? no you fielded nothing more complicated than what I summarized.
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz: what books are mentioned in surah 3:84?
[Bonz] beyinsiz YOU do not get to ask HIM questions. You have to ANSWER one
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss you couldn’t even answer one question. you try to get rid of it
[RazorsKiss] all he’s done is ask questions.
[RazorsKiss] All I’ve done is answer them.
[beyinsiz] no you couldn’t
[RazorsKiss] Well… I’ve tried to ask them 😀
[Bonz] beyinsiz You have CONSTANTLY asked questions, ad NEVER said anything
[RazorsKiss] But someone isn’t answering.
[RazorsKiss] Perhaps because they can’t, without self-refutation?
[beyinsiz] you tried well I am sorry but it didn’t work. Not my fault. You ended up saying your beliefs are the truths as historical facts
[beyinsiz] and now I am asking why then are you asking me ???????
[Bonz] beyinsiz He doesn’t HAVE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS
[beyinsiz] and now I am asking why then are you asking me ???????
[RazorsKiss] to show your truth claims for what they are – self-refuting.
[beyinsiz] you tried well I am sorry but it didn’t work. Not my fault. You ended up saying your beliefs are the truths as historical facts
[beyinsiz] and now I am asking why then are you asking me ???????
[RazorsKiss] sheer volume doesn’t show truthfulness.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss if that’s all up to the belief to prove some point as fact will you regard some claim that you are pumpkin because they believe ?
[RazorsKiss] Neither does the volume of objections.
[RazorsKiss] The failure to answer a question – from your own text – speaks volumes in itself.
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss according your own view of epistemology, if some other person believes that you are a bulky pumpkin he has all the right and it is as an historical fact. that’s where you end up
[RazorsKiss] Unless you’re prepared to answer?
* RazorsKiss will answer for beyinsiz, in that case.
[Bonz] beyinsiz You have nothing other than belief. Why is his standard higher?
[beyinsiz] RazorsKiss why would I answer ? you defined true knowledge on the basis of faith as it PROVES THE HISTORICAL FACT.
[beyinsiz] Why would you regard my questions as worthy when they are not YOUR BELIEFS ?
[beyinsiz] whyyyyyyyyyyyyy
[RazorsKiss] beyinsiz cannot escape the fact that Islam is grounded in ignorance.
[Bonz] beyinsiz All religions do that. Islam included
[beyinsiz] razor well you’re groundless to say that. that’s for sure
[beyinsiz] you are embarrassed.
[RazorsKiss] Islam points their followers toward the scriptures of Christians and the Jews – yet contradicts them throughout the Quran.
[beyinsiz] you made such a big mistake and you even know dont where exactly you stand
[RazorsKiss] Which shows, quite clearly, that Mohammed was not only not a prophet, but not even knowledgeable of what he spoke of.
[beyinsiz] because youur reliance on a historical fact as YOU ADMIT is not beyond a “belief”
[RazorsKiss] Further, it shows that Mohammed did not consider the Scriptures to be corrupted.
[RazorsKiss] Yet, modern islam claims the opposite.
[RazorsKiss] Mohammed pointed to the Scriptures as the words of God.
[RazorsKiss] Modern islam points to the scriptures, and says “corrupted”.
[RazorsKiss] This is demonstrably false, given that we have many, many, MANY manuscipt copies FAR predating Mohammed.
[RazorsKiss] that say exactly what we can read today.
[RazorsKiss] Thus, Mohammed was pointing to a book that was in the same form as we see it now – and calling it God’s.
[RazorsKiss] Yet, his followers contradict him, and us.
[RazorsKiss] That’s why beyinsiz won’t answer the question.
[RazorsKiss] He can’t.
[RazorsKiss] It shows the bankruptcy at the heart of Islam.
[RazorsKiss] The demonstrable lie that is Islam, and the demonstrable lie that Mohammed is a prophet of any sort – let alone a prophet of God.
* RazorsKiss gives beyinsiz the floor back. All yours, man. But remember – Christ can save, and save perfectly.
[RazorsKiss] God bless.

For further references:

Mohamed Did Not Believe that the Old Testament was Corrupt
Quran 101: The Uthmanic Revision
An Interesting Conversation
Ibn Masud’s Death and the text of the Quran

Once again, dear friends, it’s an election year.

Which means it’s time to endure endless rhetoric, lying snakes, and nutjobs, all pandering for our votes. Frankly, the entire modern political process in the US makes me sick, makes me tired, and makes me see red. What is even worse, to me, is the spiraling descent of conversation in Christian circles when the subject of politics is broached. If you impugn a favorite candidate, or the entire process, you must be 1. ignorant, 2. biased, or 3. Want the democrats to win.

Frankly? I don’t really CARE who wins, past the local level. They all do what they want, within the confines of the power we’ve “granted” them (as if there was truly a choice about the whole thing to begin with, in a two-party system). To vote, I have to hold my nose about something to do with the candidate, or take them at their word – which, if they are a politician, is about as likely to be kept as for me to win the lottery without even playing. It’s not going to happen.

For those who object that it’s not fair, or useful to generalize – I sincerely ask the objector to examine the collective records of the golden boys of conservatism, libertarianism, and see if my maxim holds true. Perhaps there are exceptions. All well and good. However, I believe that if there is really no guide to certainty as to their decisions, once elected, we have no way to endorse such people, as Christians, without potentially compromising our stance as followers of Christ. 1. Power breeds corruption. 2. Politics breeds compromise. 3. People, politicians in particular, LIE.

Further, I will remind you that in a government such as ours, our positive endorsements of specific people have very real consequences, and are very real indicators to the world on our willingness to compromise our God-given principles in one area for a potential advantage in another. We pass by, in our choices of governmental leadership, things which we would never pass by, in choosing a church leader. Or in a Sunday school teacher. Or even a friend we hardly know. Which, to be completely honest with you, is why I am very cynical concerning the whole concept of “elected” governance at all, the older I become. In a system such as ours, where corruption is rampant, and even encouraged – where anti-biblical statements are the cornerstones of platforms in both parties, can we really endorse anyone, with a good conscience, in that atmosphere?

I say no. I’m also gravely tired of the endorsement, of the lack of endorsement, of political campaigners being grounds for harsh words, name-calling, and vituperation. This is the reason i’ve had a long-standing policy on this blog of a “no political comments, unless the subject is politics” rule. It brings out the worst in people – including me. So, I’m done with it for the year. Period. I’m also disabling my usually-neglected poltiical blogroll for the duration.

Politics:

I do not want to see politics discussed within any topic I don’t have listed within the “Politics” post category. I am not here to talk politics, and you aren’t either – or your comment will have any political commentary removed – unless I specifically say the subject is politics.

The largest percentage of major blogs are politically oriented. Yes, I sometimes link to them – because I read them – but I don’t write about it often. If you’d like a political discussion, I suggest you visit one of the blogs listed to your right under “Politics”.

I hate to be a spoilsport, but that’s not what this blog is here for. This blog is here to discuss why you think the way you think, why you believe the way you believe, and why you hold the moral values you hold. If you’d like a discussion about one of the things above – feel free to comment. Otherwise… don’t.

This IS a politically categorized post, but I’m disabling comments on it – because, really, I don’t want to have to respond to any comments about it. I’m sick and tired of it.

No, I’m not voting for a candidate in the Presidential elections. I don’t trust any of them enough to vote for them. I have one exception, on policy – perhaps. I could almost like Ron Paul, but there is no way in God’s green earth he’s going to get the nod. Even if he does, he doesn’t have any experience in that sort of office, and although I like many of his ideas – he doesn’t have the experience to govern a nation. He’s a dark horse, albeit a very conservative/libertarian one – but one with little experience in an executive office of any sort. That’s all I have to say about that.

I’m done. I won’t respond to any more of it in chat channels, because it puts my blood pressure up through the roof, and I’m really not especially interested in being the Lone Ranger, and going it alone, with my contrarian view, against all comers. I’m done with it, I want to spend my time on more productive things, and I really don’t want to tick off my friends because they don’t agree with me, and I’m such a bulldog about what I believe. I’d rather take a stand on something other than how much I despise a bunch of slimeballs who are able to deceive enough people to be elected. I’d rather be an apologist about something that matters, thank you.

An atheist was taking a walk through the woods. “What majestic trees! What a powerful river! What beautiful animals!” he said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7 foot grizzly charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer.

He tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant the Atheist cried out: “Oh my God!…”

Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky: “You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don’t exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?”

The atheist looked directly into the light, “It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian, but perhaps could you make the BEAR a Christian?”

“Very well,” said the voice. The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And then the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together and bowed his head and spoke: “Lord, bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.”

Source: The Conservative Voice
(HT: Google Alerts)

Ripped from my comment at Joe’s Evangelical Outpost, and slightly revised.

They will realize what we’re saying, eventually, and quit reciting the media mantra of “ESC promises great results” like mouldering zombies. One day. That would involve them realizing that there is, actually, no evidence whatsoever for ESC promise, and every evidence for adult cell promise.

It would also require a mindset which ceases to disregard life.

I find it absolutely apalling that there is a group of Americans who will make any excuse, and take any road which involves the destruction of human life – just to be able to say “I have that right to choose” ( their death). Not their right to choose life – that is the road of ASC, or abortion alternative counseling – or even adoption proponents! Instead, they consciously, staggeringly, and even viciously end the life of another human being – just because they can then say they chose it.

Pro-Choice. Yeah. I’m Pro-Choice too. Except my choice is for life. I get to choose too, you know. That’s fine, though. Call yourself “Pro-Choice” – we know better. It’s not about our choices, though. It’s about theirs – the ones the “Pro-Choice” movement never offers a choice to at all.

It’s easier to talk about as a “fetus”, or a “blob of protoplasm” – or even “research with such great promise” (true or not). Never mind THEIR choices. Just pack em into the freight cars. We know what it is you’re doing. We aren’t quiet about it, though. Is that why you’re so hot to drag us away from in front of the abortion clinics? We’re actually refering to the “Solution of Choice” sans euphemisms? In public?

That just won’t do, will it? Then people would know about the freight cars and the suction hoses used to rip babies into pieces, and the saline solution used to burn them to death. They would know that you were creating babies solely to kill them, for some ephemeral chance for “a cure” with no history of success. They would know that for every baby that is successfully brought to term with IVF, that the others are simply discarded like garbage.

That’s the problem. We’re using non-euphemisms, and speaking about the “Solution of Choice” before the country is fully “sanitized” of all these “religious fanatics”- we are not following the herd. The herd curiously referred to as “Pro-Choice”. The levels of irony involved in this whole set of issues… especially from the side that calls itself “Pro-Choice” – and gives the victim of that choice no choice at all… staggering. No wonder there’s the huge media push to silence the “religious extremists” these days. We don’t speak of the “Choice Solution” in it’s “pretty” little euphemisms. We call it what it is. Murder.

That, my friends, is what they can’t stand. Any more than that grain of truth to make the lie sound believable, and they get uncomfortable. They don’t want to know – and they’re mad at us for dragging it all out into the light of day, instead of the comfortable euphemistic corner they’d buried it in.

My heart bleeds for their comfort zone – really.

P.S. – Tried a trackback to Joe’s post – got errors. I’ll check back later.