Archive for the ‘ A Slice of Life ’ Category

This is video from last year’s Arabic Festival. It’s rather stunning.

I’m posting this because this year, David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi have been arrested at the Arabic Festival. I don’t have any more details at this time, but please pray for these brothers. David is scheduled to debate twice tomorrow at the same venue as Dr. White is debating Sunday and Monday. Please pray for them, and for the debates this weekend. More info can be found here.

There are no Silver Bullets

This is a response to the much-hyped “silver bullet” post which Mr. Wario has, as of the end of this post, sent out via twitter to 51 people, thus far. I’m sure the number will grow daily, if past tendencies bear out. The problem with the post is that 1) It is chock-full of libel, while putatively rebuking libel/slander. 2) He has been corrected concerning the “facts” contained therein multiple times before. 3) While he does have two good points, they are a) buried beneath the mud he is slinging, and b) unrelated to any of the subjects he has been challenged on repeatedly. 4) Mr. Wario continues to offer fallacious arguments that have had thorough responses offered to them, and has not substantively addressed any of the challenges made to those arguments.

“Insha’Allah “name withheld” will continue to learn about Islam & become Muslim Insha’Allah,” wrote a Muslim in reaction to a link Mr. Mohammed Khan of “fake ex-Muslims dot com” posted on Dr. Ergun Caner’s Facebook fan page on Sunday, June 6, 2010. [Inset and emphasis mine.] You probably are curious to know who Muslims wish would become a Muslim. They are not involved in this saga in vain. He is none other than Dr. James White. The link was to a post on Alpha and Omega Ministries’ website. I have discussed how desperate Muslims are at spreading Islam in the United States. Apparently some Reformed Christians don’t get the point. One of them even said, “Regardless of what Ergun Caner has done, it does not change eternal truth in what God has done. Muslims laugh as do Christians.” I partly agree—we cannot change God’s will—but the lack of restraint is nauseating.

What is interesting here is that there is a complete lack of balanced address of the discussion. Notice that this entire entry says nothing concerning the demonstrable sins Ergun Caner has engaged in. It never makes any positive comment about commitment to seeking the truth displayed by those who have uncovered his falsehoods. Instead, we are told that an unnamed “lack of restraint” on the side of the Reformed folks, of course, is “nauseating”. Well, while that is an interesting personal opinion he has offered us, is there any explanation or proofs offered to back this claim up? The only discussion that follows is about Alpha and Omega. Therefore, we are left only to guess that this is whom he is referring to.

Some of these Reformed Christians have asked me on Facebook, twitter and comments on my blog, begging me to quit standing beside my fellow Christian of Muslim background, Dr. Ergun Caner. Some of them even argued I would lose credibility. I have defied their calls solely because there is not a vestige of truth in their claim. Their insults are proof that fidelity to the gospel is not what drives them, but advancing Dr. White’s cause at whatever cost, even to the truth.

Well, would you care to argue about more than piecemeal issues? When we argue sans context, and artificially limit the terms of the discussion, it’s possible to argue anything. However, when the context is allowed to be present, and the entire issue with all of it’s facets is discussed, the picture drawn is often much different. For instance: arguing “devout” in a limited context of what a Muslim considers to be devout, devoid of the context of audience, devotion as a lasting attribute, and disregarding “convert syndrome”. Any of those things will necessarily add depth to the discussion in question, and requires more argument to overcome. Stating things differently from the critic’s position, *not* addressing the critic’s position at all, and claiming victory is not sound argumentation.

Before I get started, I would like to thank Muslims who have helped us Christians to realize that we have a gargantuan problem within the Body of Christ. I apologize to Yahya and Jonathan on behalf of my Reformed Christian brethren who have insulted you. Please, forgive us.

I’d just like to remind Mr. Wario of his recent comments.

While a lot of Muslims were seeking information about Jesus Christ online and looking for Christians to talk to, some of us have been busy on our blogs and webcasts entertaining Muslims who have an agenda.

They have an ulterior motive, they tell you what you want to hear, or make the agenda – so because of that, maybe you need to make some apologies to these brothers for some of the things you have said which are not true.

Muslims started it with ex-Muslims, now they are taking it a step further in attacking Dr. White. He is already under a Muslim’s attack, being accused of denying “the doctrine of eternal security.” I bet there will be more of these attacks after the dust “settles” on the current discourse. His debates, podcasts, and speeches will be dissected. Muslims are on a mission and we are oblivious.

Muslims are on a mission, please let us not aid and abet to their tactics that attempt to discredit the Caner Brothers, other Christians of Muslim background, Dr. James White, et al. We should give our brothers the benefit of the doubt before going global with what Muslims bring to our attention. We need to become aware of the desperate tactics Muslims employ even attempting to discredit the Bible, Jesus Christ, and etcetera.

Now, keep in mind that this is not my position. This is Mr. Wario’s position. By his own standard, he is now guilty of precisely what he has been attempting to argue against. I’m perfectly fine with arguments from Muslims being given. If there are people insulting Muslims, or anyone else, they should stop, of course. What I’m pointing out is the glaring inconsistency shown by Mr. Wario. We’re more than capable of answering objections for ourselves. Mr. Wario cannot seem to answer the ones made against his position. This may be due to the fact that his position has moved 180 degrees recently, but I’ll let him defend that. This may also be due to the fact that Dr. White is not an ex-Muslim, and is thus fair game, despite what he said above. As his positions have been demonstrated to be inconsistent, it’s logical to assume that this one has also changed, due to his behavior in recent weeks toward Dr. White and any who disagree with Mr. Wario.

Dr. James White asked me to appear on his radio program, the Dividing Line, to answer some of the “accusations” I had made about him and his ministry. He insisted that I call into his radio program to discuss him publicly. Even a friend of his wrote to me. He had a problem that it only took me six weeks to find inconsistencies in his statements. I was going to write and post about his double speaking last week but decided against it. The call to the radio was supposed to discuss him and his ministry. Please listen and judge for yourself if the rules were followed.

Note the discrepancy here. First, you say that you were asked to answer some of the accusations you had made. Simple grammar denotes that this means you were to be the one answering, not asking more questions and slandering him further – as it has been demonstrated. Next, you say that the call was “supposed to discuss him and his ministry”. Which is it? Was it for you to answer for your allegations, as I provided documentation of in my previous post, or was it for *you* to discuss him and his ministry? I have listened for myself, provided a transcript, and commentary. Note also that Dr. White is a presuppositional apologist. The presupper demonstrates that the only proof that can be provided is one given from a Scriptural foundation. Instead of providing anything of the sort, you used your opportunity to slander Dr. White on his own radio show. As Dr. White has been known to say – and has said multiple times even since you began listening – “Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument”. Your inconsistency showed up quite clearly, and he nailed you on it in the call.

He has gone on record to claim that the Christianity Today article on Dr. Ergun Caner did not go “far enough” because Liberty University is its main advertiser. I called him on his speculation. For example, when Mr. John Kennedy of CT called on April 22 to interview him about the saga, he praised him on the Dividing Line as an experienced reporter who had written “over 1000 articles.”

I’m once again fascinated that you are using the exact same term you did in the call, when Dr. White corrected you. Giving factual background concerning the reporter is hardly “praise”, yet again. The comment in question merely said that he is an experienced reporter, who has written over 1000 articles for CT. Nothing else was said. For further context, this is a transcription of the portion of the 5/04 DL you are objecting to. (6:15ff 5/04) “I do not know Mr. Kennedy, we only spoke briefly on the phone, he just asked a few questions, there was no basis for me to have any knowledge of who he is, or what he’s about, or anything like that. It is very hard for me to avoid the consideration that Liberty University is a very large source of advertising budget for certain Christian media outlets, because the whole form of the article was clearly not done in an unbiased fashion. The idea that this is just some “bloggers” trying to create problems. I mean, documentation, documentation is not even discussed, linked to, anything like that, and the fact that statements were made, especially by Elmer Towns that are just completely disconnected from reality.”

Did Dr. White go “on record” to claim that Liberty was Christianity Today’s “main advertiser”? Hardly. What were you saying about speculation, Hussein? If you’re going to make accusations, make accurate ones, please.

And when the article did not meet his expectation, he was quick to speculate on the advertisement and he ran away with it. He claims CT is a for-profit organization and it risked losing ad money had the reporter covered everything he had said in the interview. He defended his speculation on the radio. He insisted that he was not defaming Liberty University, John Kennedy or Christianity Today. I was bothered by his claim and decided to contact Christianity Today.

When Dr. White’s treatment of the article did not meet Hussein’s expectations, he speculated on his comments, and ran away with them. He claims that Dr. White said that CT is a for-profit organization, and risked losing ad money had the reporter covered everything in the interview. Listen to that show again, Hussein. You will find that this is not what he said. I also insist he was not defaming any of the above. Listen to the show or read the transcript. It’s quite obvious that Dr. White did not say what you are claiming he said. I’m beginning to wonder if you, like Dr. Caner, believe that no one can access this readily available information.

What I discovered is shocking. Liberty University is not even in the top “100 CT advertisers.” Contrary to Dr. White, it is a non-profit and you can find its IRS information here and its Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability records here. I am in shock that the Diving Line has officially become the Dissing Line not only of Christians but also of reputable Christian organizations.

Frankly, it doesn’t shock me. Contrary to Mr. Wario’s claims, Dr. White did not say it was “for profit”. I’m sadly not amazed that Mr. Wario is continuing on in a line of discussion that is distinctly unprofitable, untrue, and frankly, libelous.

Is Dr. White going to apologize for ruining these reputations? When I asked him where his speculation fit in Ephesians 4:29, he retorted in a tweet, “Before I block you, I must say thank you as well: your unwillingness to answer direct and honest questions was very telling.”

Is Mr. Wario going to apologize for the weeks of his libel of Dr. White? For speculating about Dr. White’s motives?

Dr. White’s Christian fans believe everything he says about Islam. They would rather take his word on Islam than a Muslims’. For those who are unaware, he made what I call a “parody” video of Dr. Caner’s pronunciation of Arabic words. I urged Dr. White to refrain from discussing the Caner Brothers. He never listened. Now Muslims have a better reason, which would be a clue to stop but I do not know if he would listen. I wonder if he is accountable to anyone.

No, we actually do independent study of our own, and ask questions as well. I find it interesting that you continually denigrate whole swatches others to “demonstrate” your position. As for me, who has spent a significant amount of time offering substantive response, which has not been addressed in any meaningful fashion, I find your statement distasteful, at best. It is akin to the commentary given by Romanist apologists and others who dismissively title friends of the ministry as “minions”. If you’d like a list, I keep track.

There is a problem with the video. Some Muslims kindly asked Dr. White to edit the video or put a disclaimer that there is a verse missing. The error is due to a mishandling of Suratul Al-Fatihah, the “first” chapter of the Qur’an. An entire verse was left out when the tutor recited. (The tutor is an Arab Christian and was never a Muslim.) Dr. White joined in the recitation and did not catch the error. The video is now on YouTube. Muslims want it edited because it misrepresents the Qur’an.

First, this has been addressed.

Apparently, that is too much to ask of Dr. White. He wrote a blog entry about the error, dismissing Muslims’ request as “irrational.” Is this sort of arrogance befitting of a minister of the Gospel?

Apparently, it’s too much to ask Hussein to mention that the blog post contained much more than a single word. Was that all he said, Hussein?

I asked him about it and he tweeted, “Why do you care so much about what irrational people think? I do not understand it.” He and his tutor made a mistake and he does not acknowledge it. Do Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church and Alpha and Omega Ministries have a consistory and board of directors respectively? If they do, something needs to be done about his behavior.

Feel free to contact Pastor Fry or A&O’s board of directors. I will mention to you that if this behavior continues, I will be contacting your consistory, on the charge of libelous troubling of the brethren. I’m not kidding, and I don’t make empty promises, sir. This is getting ridiculous to an absurd degree. You seem to consider everything in a personal fashion, and your statements in reply to consideration of your argumentation is *personal attacks*. This, sir, is quite ridiculous. Repent.

He maintains that the Caner Brothers are fake ex-devout Muslims. Court documents destroy his argument. He has not apologized and it does not look like he will any time soon. He argues that a Christian leader should be “above reproach.” Now he balks at what he has been calling Dr. Ergun Caner to do. Even a legal document, one that was issued more than three decades ago by a county government in Ohio cannot convince him. Are we going to believe this document, which a private investigator in a concerted effort with Dr. White unearthed, or Dr. White, who merely pontificates? You be the judge.

I’ll address this allegation next, but it’s rather simply handled. First, the post in question has a significant problem in context. “…the trial court erred in failing to make specific conclusions of law as to the constitutionality of an order requiring defendant-appellant’s children to continue their instruction and practice of the Islamic faith.” I haven’t answered this until now, because it’s blindingly obvious, on a cursory reading, and to anyone who reads it straight through. Who is the defendant in the *appeal* to follow, where he takes that last quote from? “‘The trial court’s denial of the plaintiff’s motion to require the children to be raised in the Islamic faith by their mother.’ [Emphasis mine.] This proves that Dr. Caner’s mother was a Muslim even when she was going through the divorce proceedings, because Mr. Caner asked the court if she could raise the children as Muslims.” Whose order was *denied*? Acar Caner’s. Who *appealed that ruling*? Monica Caner. Thus, Hussein’s argument is entirely backwards. Acar Caner’s request stood – Monica appealed it. Appealed raising her children as Muslims.

Muslims’ attack on Dr. Caner has fizzled but Reformed Christians are striving to keep it in the spotlight. I am fully convinced that nothing would satisfy them to drop some issues.

Nothing but truth, no. But it doesn’t seem as if Mr. Wario is concerned with truth. Oddly, this is directly contrary to what Dr. White tells every Muslim critic. Seek truth. Mr. Wario is not concerned with truth, by everything we have demonstrated thus far. He is dedicated to personal attack rather than addressing the argumentation provided, and he simply will not admit to wrongdoing thus far.

Here is a prime example. There are Muslims who scrutinize everything Dr. White says about Islam. They are keen, especially when he spews his knowledge of Islam to debunk Dr. Caner.

Note the usage of terms. “Spew” Not poisoning the well there at all, is he? 🙂

Not all his outings have been successful. He made mistakes—with no corrections or apologies—on Islamic teachings, most noticeably prayer in the bathroom.

He has responded to your critiques.

A Sunni Muslim who adheres to Malik Madhaba (school of thought) had urged him to stop his charade in March when he first started talking about the issue on the DL. This Muslim man in fact wrote to Dr. White six weeks before I called into DL. He asked him to stop discussing the prayer in the bathroom issue, because it was a non-issue, citing different Islamic fatwa (edicts), which according to Hanafi School (which Dr. Caner’s father adhered to) supported prayer in the bathroom. This Muslim even brought up a scenario with Dr. White about an incarcerated Muslim in a cell with no walls separating the bathroom from his living area. Dr. White never listened and continued discussing the issue. He got airtime out of it even after I called into his program six weeks later. He even brought it up last Thursday on DL.

This is an exercise in missing the point. I invite any reader to examine whether any of these extreme cases have anything to do with Ergun Caner’s case, which, as a differentiation, has been discussed, at great length.

I know Reformed Christians who have written to Dr. White about their concerns in regards to his involvement in this saga, and how he has not acted according to scriptures. Whenever they tried to have him focus, at least examine his own involvement; he always ended up turning the conversation toward the Caner Brothers.

Well, using the anonymous correspondent card is well-played. I would venture a guess that they brought up the same objections that have been personally addressed multiple times since this saga began. I’d invite these correspondents to post their letters – I bet I can finagle getting the response they received posted, as well. As far as I know (and I asked on this point), there has been no such private outcry from “Reformed Christians”. I’m willing to be corrected, of course – but I do not speak from no knowledge on this point.

His fans, supporters and colleagues have been asking me about “Hadith 29:82” that he challenged me to identify on DL. Once again, I repeat. I addressed the Hadith issue—which even Muslims do not make an issue—in a previous post on May 15, 2010. I said “there is no “official” way to cite Hadith. The most authentic Hadith collection is Sahih Bukhari. Many times when it is quoted, it comes without the name because it is the most authentic and widely referenced. I have checked some of the aHadith in question and they come from Sahih Bukhari.

Once again, you not only failed to listen to the call you made, Dr. White’s comments afterwards (the one he asked you in the phone call was NOT Bukhari, although there is a 2982 in Bukhari), and failed to read my post – where I answered your point quite thoroughly. If you had done more listening, and less speaking (Anyway, anyway…) you might have learned something. Honestly, I fail to see how on earth you could tell which Hadith 2982 Dr. White was referring to. In fact, you just gave the wrong one, assuming Bukhari.

If there were any errors on the Caner Brothers’ part, it was very minor. I never said that there was no problem in Unveiling Islam pertaining to how aHadith were cited. I avoided answering the questions “on-air” because Muslims are some of Dr. White’s biggest fans. His lampooning of any Christian who disagrees with him on any matter draws them. Since I did not have the Hadith books at hand, I did not answer it lest Muslims use the incorrect answer against me.

Note the prejudicial language. “Lampooning”. You didn’t mind answering the questions you had prepared answers for. The ones you didn’t – you didn’t answer. However, if you are going to make a claim, at least try to back it up. There was no way you could have known which Hadith he wanted cited. You know that, and everyone else does. Only you don’t know that, apparently.

Dr. White is frantically trying to keep the Hadith discrepancies in the spotlight. I should recommend that Dr. White venture out of his self-schooling environment. Only then will he open his eyes to Islamic views that differ from his or meet people who would call him to account. There is more a student gains outside of his or her self-study. A complete library can only take you so far.

I would suggest that you venture outside the Islamic apologetics environment for a while. You will acquire needed breadth, depth, and perspective. You have now backed yourself into the opposite corner from which you started, doing exactly what you claimed your opponent was doing. Is this consistency, or anywhere near what our calling is to be? I find it amazing that you think Dr. White’s only encounters with Muslim thought or argument is in books. Did you forget his debates? The discussions prior and following? The youtube engagements he has been involved in for years now? Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have made it readily apparent to all that you have not taken the time to get the background of the man you are critiquing. You are apparently unaware of the most basic things concerning his ministry, and as a result, your criticisms falter quite often on that basis alone. Sir, as I warned you as you started this; your credibility will suffer. If you haven’t felt it yet, you will. The resultant catastrophe will be solely yours, as well. Several of us have tried to turn you back, but you refused to listen.

A few Reformed radio programs have given some airtime to Dr. White. He continues the same stories. I am convinced beyond the shadow of any doubt that Dr. James White is not participating in this saga to get to the truth but to drag this issue on for personal gain.

Fascinating that speculation is okay in your case, but not in others. I’m convinced that you got in over your head, and now you’re resolved to go down swinging. You don’t have to.

So far, people who have publicly disagreed with him have been labeled. His fans have targeted them as well. He and his fans blame my “irrationality” on my cultural background. Rich Price, the President of Alpha and Omega Ministries, tweeted about me, “@HusseinWario I am seriously beginning to wonder if you are nothing short of a crackpot.”

No, we are quite familiar with Muslim argumentation, and yours is very similar. Keep in mind – we are a listening audience who has listened to hundreds of hours of Islamic lecturers and debaters now. We’re quite familiar with the patterns of Islamic thought. If you don’t recognize it, I’ll tell you this – we have a man in channel whose parents are from Ghana, and now lives in the United Kingdom. Just today he was affirming that this pattern exists in his extended family. It’s not personal. It’s an observation. once again – learn to separate the position from the person, or you will be continually offended.

As for Rich’s tweet – I agree, it was uncalled for. I even discussed it with him, and he agreed it was borne of frustration. As I’ve said – I’ve been consistent.

I was familiar with the Reformed faith even prior to coming to the United States in 1996. I never heard of Dr. White or his ministry until April 2010. Now that tells you where he ranks as a Reformed theologian.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware Reformed theology or apologetics was a popularity contest, or that there were “ranks”. If you treat it that way, I’m afraid to say that you will be doing the work of man your entire “ministry” – not of God. Take that to the bank.

For you Baptist folks, I know we have some theological disagreements but do not look at Reformed Christians through what Dr. White or his friends espouse.

I’m once again struck by the obvious holes in your theological background. Once before I’ve mentioned to you that “Baptist” also applies to Reformed Baptists. Like me, like Dr. White, like Tom Chantry. In fact, historically, confessional Baptists have been the theological core of Baptist life. I refer you to Tom Nettles’ excellent book on the subject – “By His Grace and For His Glory”. Differentiating “Baptists”, as if they are either monolithic, or not including Reformed Baptists, is a non sequitur.

Even Reformed people have written to him to ask to stop his campaign.

Not according to my information, as stated above. A simple jaunt around the blogosphere or Reformed sites is quite sufficient to note that practically everyone in the Reformed world who is paying attention to the Caner fiasco does not agree with you.

It seems like only his fans (who include Muslims) agree with him that it is biblical to continue this public debate about a brother in Christ. The time has come to ignore Dr. James White as long he continues to promote himself and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It seems like only Caner’s fans (and you) agree that it’s acceptable to launch personal attacks consistently and systematically against anyone who says something negative about the veracity of Dr. Caner’s statements. The time has come to repent, and leave that raging fire of a tongue you’ve been utilizing behind when you do.

I have said in the past that he has some underlying problems, which his supporters and fans are oblivious to. I have consulted a few brothers about his situation. Some of what has been said is not fit to share.

Then why share that? 🙂 Once again, to you, it’s primarily about the man, not his arguments. I challenge any reader to go visit Mr. Wario’s blog to verify my statement. Read over my posts which document his continuing refusal to be corrected. Who is being unteachable, and who is responding factually, and cogently to what is presented to them?

I have been asked to leave him alone because he does not even get along with his colleagues. The man is never wrong. He, as a smart and prolific Christian theologian should concede some grounds that he is not well versed in, right?

I would posit, sir, that apologetics in general is not something you are versed in. I have significantly more material produced on the subject than you do, in fact. I don’t dispute you know more about me in one specific topic. However, you have shown by your behavior that you are lacking the key element of an apologetics ministry. The ability to give an answer with gentleness AND reverence. This is something lost on many polemicists in today’s high-speed, fast-paced, instant-answer society. I’m able to answer quickly at need – but only because I’ve studied to show myself approved – a workman that need not be ashamed. I’m sure I will make mistakes, and shame myself as well as my Lord at times. However, the behavior that you have displayed for us all, Mr. Wario, is distinctly not that of a Christian apologist. Once again, repent. I have no animus against you, but I will not correct forever. As I said, if this behavior continues, I will contact those to whom you are accountable. I have nothing to fear in that regard, and will gladly give you the contact information of my elders. However, know this – it’s been both plain and well-documented that you are behaving in a manner unfitting to a Christian. Repent, sir.

Sadly, even his narrow knowledge of Islam through self-study cannot be challenged. I hope he reconsiders his way. He asked for this post and his wish has been granted.

How on earth does Mr. Wario know what the breadth of Dr. White’s study in Islam is, having only listened to the Dividing Line for 2 months? It’s readily apparent that he hasn’t read the long list of articles on the website under “Islam”, or viewed the many, many videos related to Islam that he has produced. On what basis – other than speculation – does he say this?

I really wish I didn’t have to write these sorts of posts. I really do. However, I made it my point early on to take up Dr. White’s request that someone attempt to explain what it is that we are about. I have made the best effort, God willing, that I can manage, and I pray that God be glorified by it.

~Joshua (The guy who hides his name, like most Reformed guys) Whipps

Faith, Hope, and Love

My son Landon just related to me his joy in reading the first chapter of John. How he saw all sorts of wonderful things in the Word; that is made him think about the things in the past – the prophets, Jesus, that it made him think about what was coming in the future, that it made him want to pray (and that he did), that it makes him want to read the Word every day.

Folks, if you want a clue whether someone is saved – THOSE are the sort of things you look for. NOT whether they’ve “made a decision”, or whether they “want to be baptised”. The will is enslaved to sin. No emotional appeal, no matter how sincerely made or responded to, will overcome that spiritual slavery. God’s power breaks those chains, and they come to love Him and His Word. Of His choice, His power, His drawing, His regeneration, and His faith – wholly His work. A decision, dear friends, unaccompanied by His means of grace, is a work – of the fallen human will. We’re going to nurture this precious tendency, and watch over his growth carefully – as faithful parents – but it makes me so inexpressibly sad that this is not what we’re looking for in our families as evidence of the power of God. God’s work is ever so much more powerful and glorious than our own.

It is the amazing work of God’s gloriously sovereign grace to give new life to a dead sinner – and to proffer His gifts of faith, hope, and love, as well as every other good and gracious gift. I pray that Landon will continue in these things. I also pray that we give God alone the glory for His works.

Please, Hussein. Stop.

This is a response to this comment. I don’t like cluttering my comments with massive post-length tomes, so here is my response – I quoted his comment in the post.

Thank you for selectively quoting me.
My pleasure. if I had exhaustively quoted your twitter account, it would have flooded the buffer out with promotional tweets. This isn’t a “weigh the good against the bad” contest. That’s Islam, not Christianity. The scales, right? Christianity teaches that a teacher must be “above reproach”, Hussein (1 Tim 3:2). I pointed out what I saw that was wrong, and what was hindering you in that regard. If you don’t like it, then I suggest you stop engaging in that behavior. In any case, please tell me how your discussion was “above reproach”?

By the way, I rebuked Diana for her criticism of Dr. James White.

Well, I don’t think that makes things any better, especially since you left the comments in place. But as we’ll see, you didn’t say a word about the venom in her comments concerning Dr. White’s family and character.

That’s a copout of colossal magnitude. In fact, Hussein, it’s reprehensible.

For some reason you selectively picked the tweets and left out the most important one.

As for selectively picking – of course I do. I’m not going to post hundreds of tweets. The ones pertinent, I posted. I actually didn’t see that one – but let’s see how much good that three-word tweet did. Shall we? (By the by – that’s it? That’s all you could say for the mountains of abuse she’s dished out thus far?)

As for “she repented” – let’s take a little look.

drpenn: Integrity: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. @droakley1689 has none. 11:31 AM May 17th via web
HusseinWario: @drpenn Tone it down. 11:36 AM May 17th via web in reply to drpenn
drpenn: @HusseinWario NO. You know – James White blogs, blogs, blogs – throwing his fits – and he can get away with it??!!! bull. 11:37 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
drpenn: @HusseinWario If he can cry foul – and @emircaner and @erguncaner remain silent!? I’m sick of James White & his arrogance. 11:38 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
@HusseinWario james white ‘demands’, ‘demands’ – give me a break. Who does he think he is for crying out loud?! 11:39 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
(Note: 3 tweets in response to that. A much different picture than what you represented above, is it not?)
ugh. what.ever. 11:39 AM May 17th via web
(Probably also in response, but it isn’t tagged as a reply)
HusseinWario: @drpenn I just want Dr. James White to focus on the Dividing Line, not criticizing any Christians, just teach from the Word. That is all. 11:42 AM May 17th via web in reply to drpenn
drpenn: @HusseinWario wouldn’t we all like that – look @ his blog – he double-talks. he wants it to end – but keeps perpetuating it. #fail 11:46 AM May 17th via web in reply to HusseinWario
HusseinWario: @drpenn There is a comment you need to respond to at http://www.cracksinthecrescent.com 5:31 PM May 17th via web in reply to drpenn
drpenn: @HusseinWario no really I don’t. :). I’m tired of their same old arguments. 5:42 PM May 17th via Echofon in reply to HusseinWario

Where’s the repentance? I did a search for “repent” on her full history from the 17th. These are the returns.

drpenn: @DSpratlin It’s in words like *demand* an apology. and *must* repent – his words reek of piety and self righteous smugness. 3:43 PM May 17th via web in reply to DSpratlin

drpenn: @DSpratlin ROTFLOL!! Are you SERIOUS?!! LOL!!! That is soooo pathetic. It’s Jimmie’s same old song…”REPENT!!”…..LOL. dude – really. 3:16 PM May 20th via web in reply to DSpratlin

RT DSpratlin @drpenn Oh no! Not repentance! We don’t need no stinkin’ repentance! God forbid people repent! That’s so unbiblical! 4:09 PM May 20th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to drpenn Retweeted by drpenn

RT DSpratlin @drpenn The unrepentant won’t be laughing. Neither will Caner when he gets his pink slip. Oh well. LBTS needs a real man as president. 4:18 PM May 20th via Twitter for iPhone in reply to drpenn Retweeted by drpenn

What about her site, you say?

Oops.

How about in the next few days? (and I note that your comment was about “integrity”, not the comments about Dr. White’s family.)

In this post, dated May 20th, she says this:

“I think Peter, Tim, and I have spoken the truth about James White. I also think Hussein Wario has spoken the truth about James White.”

Also:

“That being said – I still *absolutely* stand behind my theory about *why* James White attacks Dr. Ergun Caner with such ferocity. James White’s accusations ring loudly of truth – and I do not believe they should be ignored. James White’s severe co-dependent behavior only adds fuel to the fire of the truth . It’s blatant and extremely obvious to me that James White has baggage.”

Does that look like repentance to you, Mr. Wario? It looks like repetition of the same sin to me. Oh, then there’s this:

drpenn: @DSpratlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iId9uMleec&feature=related 4:30 PM May 20th via web in reply to DSpratlin

Go ahead. Click.

drpenn: @DSpratlin you are just as big a liar as @droakley1689 I stand by my link – “chief”. about 24 hours ago via web in reply to DSpratlin (about 6:30pm CST)

drpenn: Well – I guess the followers of a tantrum thrower *would* be cry babies. That makes sense. about 24 hours ago via web

drpenn: Sorry about all that folks. I got sucked in. http://wp.me/sIKnh-fail about 23 hours ago via web

drpenn: @cwray319 – those are his tweets to me yesterday. – so – I lost my “cool” – and sent the GI Jane link. about 2 hours ago via web

She did apologize in her post, which I grant – but is that where we go – at all – in Christian conversation?

Is that the “repentance” you meant? An apology is not repentance. It also wasn’t for posting the filth about Dr. White’s family.

Speaking of which…

And your second comment was devoid of any civility.

I’m sorry you feel that differentiating between arguments and the people themselves is devoid of civility. As I was taught, that was called “refraining from engaging in ad hominem.” I would respectfully ask you to consider the “civility” of her comments thus far – which is my principal problem with you thus far – allowing such behavior on your blog.

I’ll let whoever Googles your comments decide for themselves. By the way, there is no way I am going to allow a link that does not contribute to the discussion.

Yes, ad hominem SO greatly contributes, Hussein. Give me a break.

I’m telling you, what said must be true. Just look at James’ behavior!! His own behavior points to the truth of it. Until James White finds healing for all of that hurt – he will continue to hurt others. Fact.

Diana (drpenn on twitter)

Keep it up and people will really take you serious

If that is all the response you are able to muster, may I respectfully suggest, yet again, that you repent. I’m serious now, and I’ve been serious all along. You’re making an utter spectacle out of yourself by your behavior, and associating yourself with behavior like Diana’s is appallingly inconsistent, as well as just flat-out wrong.

Perhaps you’re not used to being challenged, sir, but you should be. Accountability is a serious, serious matter – and I hope you are subjecting yourself to someone for that purpose. I’m making an issue of this because your approach, frankly, is imbalanced to a large degree. If you’re going to make these sorts of claims around any other Christian, prepare to defend them. Further, if you are not yourself “above reproach”, your ministry will suffer, and the Gospel will be mocked. Which is what I have pointed out to you from the first. Please, stop this.

If you’d prefer to discuss privately from here on in, all of my contact info is up top. I’ll be DMing you a link to this post.

May God grant you wisdom,
~Joshua

A Good Question.

For all of the Ergun Caner supporters out there:

When you engage in apologetics, do you go to the evidence for the resurrection? That’s a fairly safe bet for most of you.

If you won’t accept evidence that demonstrates Dr. Caner’s falsehoods – how on earth do you expect unbelievers to accept your evidence for the resurrection?

Interesting example of why Theology matters – in apologetics as well as in any other sphere.

For more information: Choosinghats.com

HT: Dale

Consistency and Emotional Arguments

Hussein Wario recently added a second post to his appeal for the cessation of what he calls “attacks” on the Caners, as well as “aiding and abetting” Muslim tactics. He adds this recommendation: “We should give our brothers the benefit of the doubt before going global with what Muslims bring to our attention.”

I engaged him in the comment section shortly – those comments, and his replies are here.

However, my third comment, he refused to publish. Additionally, he has removed the links in my previous two comments, as well as the link that should show up when you mouseover my name. I’m sorry folks, but my “handle” is fairly unique. Not to mention that this post is about to jump up in the google search results when his name is googled, unfortunately. Fortunately, I have a habit of saving the comments that people refuse to publish – and since I have my own blog, it can be reproduced here for all to see.

Why are you masking your identity?

I’m not. Click the link to my site. It’s very easily available. Even if I was – what does it matter? I’m very easily contactable.

By the way, the way Dr. White deals with people who disagree with him, how arrogant he gets, that is what turns off Muslims. Muslim ministry is not about debating them, calling them “irrational” and their arguments “emotive” in order to score points.

How about saying that their arguments are emotive, irrational, or inconsistent? That is what I said. Please read more carefully next time.

I have read through your posts and it seems like you have no idea what I have been writing about.

While that is a bold assertion, it would be nice if you’d give an example for your readers, instead of merely asserting.

You could be Dr. White masquerading as some guy.

Or, you could go to the website that links from my name. It’s very simple, sir.

Mark my words. Unless Dr. White quits discussing the Caner Brothers, debasing them while exalting himself, I will continue with this endeavor.

Once again – you are presenting us with an emotive argument, devoid of factual, logical information. Please provide this.

Wait for Monday and you will see for yourself how he would need to revise his “open letter” to Liberty University and jettison some of his talking points.

I’m sure you’ll have it all over twitter yet again 😉

If you really care about the truth and Muslim ministry, you need to tell him to quit attacking these Christians of Muslim background.

Why do I need to? Again, please provide an argument for why I should so so.

Dr. White is the only apologist I know who openly criticizes people he disagrees with by name.

Can you explain why it is better to do so without naming people? Above, you were criticizing me for using a pseudonym. Is this consistent? Further, yet another assertion sans argumentation.

I am convinced that he cares less about the Caner Brothers’ repentance but score some popularity from this saga. His story keeps on changing.

Can you provide an argument to demonstrate either claim?

You also need to come out openly and reveal you identity. Why do my fellow Calvinists who are Dr. White’s sympathizers and followers commonly use pseudo names? Where is your integrity?

Sir, go to my site. Seriously. It’s all right there. Furthermore, I find it oddly inconsistent that you are criticizing others for integrity issues – in public – when your prior argument is that you must follow a “biblical pattern” in the matter of public claims. I don’t have anything in my inbox from you. Inconsistency, as Dr. White often says, is the sign of a failed argument. As Dr. White told you when you called in, a public statement can be publicly responded to – the pattern laid out that you referred to is for use in the local church.

As for you trying to tell me to quit, saying that you are concerned about my credibility because I stand with my fellow ex-Muslims who have sinned and who Dr. White and his Reformed-minded Christians have concocted ways to drive them off the face of the earth is laughable.

Can you give an argument for why this is so? This is yet another assertion, without even an attempt to demonstrate it.

You dismiss them as scholars of Islam with your shallow arguments and I stand by them because you have no clue what you have been talking about.

Can you demonstrate this?

You also dismiss them as devout ex-Muslims. Who are you to draw these conclusions when the court documents are inconclusive?

Can you demonstrate this?

You, Dr. White and the rest of his followers just pontificate, thus giving the Reformed faith a bad reputation.

Can you demonstrate this?

Dr. White cried foul saying that Liberty University had not been investigating Dr. Caner. And when Liberty decided to, he changed his tune.

Can you give any sort of factual reference for this?

All Christian leaders I have talked with who also work directly with Muslims agree with me that Dr. White has some major issues.

Argumentum ad populum. Fallacious argumentation, sir. Also given without any sort of citation. You’ve heard Dr. White in debate with people who assert “all scholars say”, or the like. What would the answer be to that assertion, Hussein?

Some of them know him personally and have intimated to me their frustration with him.

Someone’s emotional state concerning a person is hardly an argument of any sort.

If there will be any fallout, it will affect Dr. White and his ministry. So, tell him to go back to the basics and quit ruining the Dividing Line’s reputation. We might as well call it the Dissing Line because that label fits so well these days.

Ad hominem, naked assertion.

Sir, I wish you the best, but with the mass of assumptions, emotive arguments, assertions, and fallacies you’ve presented, is there any wonder that we’re not overly convinced? Please give something substantive in response. As it stands, I’m afraid that you are simply just not going to make any impression unless the standards of your discourse improve.

Sincerely,
Joshua. (It’s all on my site, Hussein. Not everyone has to be like you and use their real name as their url, okay?)

Now, while that may have hurt his feelings, did I address him or his arguments? Yet, my comment was not posted as of 8:02 pm. I posted it yesterday afternoon.

A few comments that also demonstrate inconsistency:

Dr. White is all about himself.

That was when I realized that Dr. White has an underlying problem, perhaps beyond these accusations of Dr. Caner being a liar.

I am a Reformed Christian and I am utterly ashamed of Dr. White. In my opinion, he is a disgrace to the Reformed faith—sola scriptura—because of his meddling in this matter and his disregard of the scripture. He is tacitly helping Muslims with their war against Muslim converts to Christianity.

@kai5263499 Oh my! I am glad to know I am not the only one. He is nuts. One of his accomplices just insulted me. Is it an Arizona thing? WOW

Notice – all of these are ad hominem, not ad argumentum. Against the man, not the argument. Unreal.

2 more comments have gone up since then. One from a particularly venomous character named Dianedrpenn on twitter.

A sampling of her choice invective:

I see one man, and his group of white-heads jumping up and down like a bunch of raving lunatics crying “foul!!” “unfair!!”.

James White thrives on all of this – he feeds on it like a parasite on a dead fish.

Even if Ergun Caner bowed down and did everything the pompous James White has asked him – no DEMANDED him – to do, it would not be enough to satisfy James White. James White is out to destroy Ergun and Emir Caner.

Wow – big red bull-sheizah flag on that one there Jimmie.

How delusional are you? This would be about as likely as Hitler asking Ben Stein to dinner for a “little friendly chat”.

“in your power”…..that, friends is “worship” in a statement if I ever saw it. It’s sad, It’s grotesque. It’s creepy. It’s telling of James White’s obsession, and how deep it goes.

@droakley1689 thrives on attacking @emircaner & @erguncaner like a parasite feeding on decay.

Then the finale:

link

She then tweets twice – once to a friend, providing a link – then to Dr. White – to make sure he sees it, I suppose.

@droakley1689 @bobbycapps He (james white) promotes the demon presiding over sexual abuse by perpetuating his own baggage!

I will still stand by my comment that linking to James Whites’ sister’s blog was not an attack on James White – but an observation about why he attacks Dr. Caner with such strange ferocity.

Apparently for Diane, it’s perfectly fine to spread gossip all over the internet. To assault the character of someone she has never met. To tell others to “drop it, for the sake of Christ” about Caner – in the same post she brings up shameful, untrue allegations from someone else she likewise has never met.

Folks, this is not only inconsistent – it’s unconscionable. Dr. White has addressed the subject, as distasteful as it is. A simple search on his youtube channel will show it to you. Further – this has nothing to do with the subject, whatsoever.

As for Mr. Wario – I find it utterly, appallingly inconsistent for him to allow that comment to be posted (and all of his comments are moderated) but not mine. It’s all right to allow someone to post libelous commentary about the person you are asking to stop “attacking” a brother (when in reality he is calling that brother to repentance) – but not okay for someone to point out your own inconsistencies in your comment. Additionally, I find it amazing that he attacks Dr. White himself throughout this piece, the comments, and via twitter – while trying to say that we can never publicly respond to public comments. Further, he is making public rebukes to me – while saying that we shouldn’t publicly rebuke people 😉

Just a final note to Mr. Wario – your own words.

I believe in restoration of a fallen Christian and not gossip them in public.

Note that restoration comes AFTER a man admits that he sinned, and repents. You let Diane skip right over the second part. You skip right over the Biblical pattern in your assumption that he HAS repented. You skip over the fact that Dr. Caner denies everything that we have demonstrated, through thorough research. Legal documents, that show he was there prior to the age that he claims he got here – repeatedly.

It is hardly “gossip” when the facts are demonstrable, plain, and incontrovertible. Ergun Caner has lied to a great, great many people – about where he is from, what he knows, how old he was when he converted, and a host of other things. As I told you in the comment previous:

I’d like to point something out to you. By defending Dr. Caner, you are undermining your own testimony. When you defend a man who is patently, obviously, lying to a great extent about himself, his background, and his expertise, you are damaging your OWN credibility. You are a convert from Islam. No one questioning Dr. Caner’s honesty from our side remotely questions that he is, as well. However, by defending him – from no logical basis, as far as I can tell – you are damaging your OWN credibility as a witness to Muslims. His damaged credibility will thereby attach to you.

Please, sir – for the sake of your own ministry to Muslims, and that of others of us, please stop.

The ball is in Dr. Caner’s court to repent. The ball, my friend, is also in your court to repent. Delete that shameful comment, please. I couldn’t care less if you publish mine now – it’s a bit late for that. The inconsistency you just displayed to us by allowing that one through is absolutely amazing. Go look up a bit of Wes Widner’s history with Dr. White, as well – and what he has called Dr. White, and others, in the past. Examine yourself, repent, and sin no more. You know I accurately identified your lack of logical argumentation for what it is. I have no interest in attacking you. If I wanted to attack you, I’d be @ing to everyone I know on twitter, as you seem to do with your posts. I have no interest in this being anything other than a public call to repentance – as Dr. White has issued with Dr. Caner, when he was blocked from further conversation. You do know that Dr. white attempted to resolve these matters in private, first, correct? That others of us asked Dr. Caner the same questions as well? That Dr. Caner has now blocked practically everyone who has criticized him at all, now? In a biblical model of repentance, what is the next step there? Bring it before the whole church. This has been brought to Liberty – to Dr. Caner – and now to everyone, as he has refused to repent. As I said – I have every interest in attempting to call you to repentance and restoration. Please, for the sake of the Gospel – stop what you are doing and take a good hard look at yourself, and the effect on your ministry if you continue.

~RK

(P.S. – click on “About” to the top left – my full bio is there. Most users in Dr. White’s chat channel have a “username” that they use to chat under. This is mine. It also has been my online username for almost two decades. Note that Dr. White also uses one – DrOakley1689. Is he “hiding himself”? Instead of jumping to conclusions, why don’t you ask – or look?)

Of Exposition and Pastoral Ministry

Pastor Camp,
Well sir, I do appreciate you answering my questions, even though I don’t believe they fully answered the questions I brought up.

I would like to address a few things, if I may:

1) When you are making an objection, I would offer that the burden of proof lies on you to state your case, and then argue it. As it appears to me, you have stated a general principle, told us that certain men violated that principle, and then assumed it from that point forward. When asked concerning specifics, the response has been restatements of that principle. I understand that this is what you believe – but only in a very general way, and not with precision in your definition.

2) When you are responding, you seem to be reading past a good many things that give context to the statements I, at least, am making.

For instance: if what we’re getting from your position is what you’re really saying seems to taken as “this is what you said”. If you notice, I carefully worded it so as to give you a chance to explain where you are coming from. Most of my questions were designed in order to give you that opportunity. Instead, I am being informed of what the Word says re: preaching. I’m well aware of what it says. My questions had to do with what else a pastor does. You seem to be begging the question in this regard.

Secondly, I’d like to point out that I have some small familiarity with presuppositional apologetics. However, practicing apologetics, first, learning apologetics, second, teaching apologetics, third, cannot be done solely in an expositional manner. I am able to exposit passages to teach the general principles of the method – but teaching the method itself _cannot_ be expositional – neither can practicing it. I know for a fact that Bahnsen exposited Acts 17 to demonstrate this – but exposition of a specific text was not what he did to teach it.

Additionally, I find it rather strange that you would resort to comments like “nice try”. Sir, I quite understand that you are quite a bit older than I am. I would appreciate it if you would at least respect the fact that I cared enough to ask you these questions, however. Recall, sir, that we are to respond with gentleness and reverence. Humility as well as boldness. I haven’t said anything similar to you, and I’ve attempted to be irenic in my interaction.

I’ve asked some specific questions, with context provided for them just in case I was being unclear. The context I gave seems to have been passed over, in many respects. When I give specific situations that are the concern of myself and other brothers, only small excerpts are addressed, and the most general comments, rather than the most specific. What we’re asking for is specificity in your objection. I’m aware of what the general objection is. I would like to know what, precisely, you objected to, and from what standard you do so.

For instance – do you object to Dr. Duncan teaching the assembled pastors about the history of the church? That is not exposition, and seems to fall under your objection. What, precisely, do you object to? Whose talks do you object to? What about what they said is objectionable? Why is this objectionable? How do you get this objection from Scripture? As the objector, it would be eminently helpful to detail what you objected to – so as to know what we have to either answer, or agree with – as I’ve said previously. I understand the general gist of your objection – just not:
1) The extent to which you object (how far does the objection that exposition is required go? In every situation whatsoever?)
2) The object of your objection (Who, and what – and please be specific)
3) The grounds of your objection – specifically. We’re all aware of the Biblical injunction to preach the Word in and out of season, of course. However, on what Biblical warrant do you ground your objection that you provide the extent of, above? Please be specific.

I know that you’re making these comments on your own blog – I fully understand that. However, when you make a serious objection – calling what was done, sin – it would be eminently helpful to let us know *what* was sin. Which is why I’m now addressing this on mine. I gather that you don’t consider me to be lucid – I can accept that. I’m often not. However, I’m afraid that I would also consider your objections thus far to be lacking in clarity. I’m still wondering what, precisely, was considered sinful? Is a lecture sinful, if not expositional? Is teaching on historical subjects sinful, if not expositional? Is teaching on other, antithetical worldviews sinful, if not expositional – such as what Dr. White, or I do in our apologetics conferences or classes? How are you defining “expositional” in this context, if any of the above are rightly your assertions? I’m really, really not trying to be difficult. I’m not. I just really do not know what you are objecting to, and what, precisely, your objection is meant to consist of.

When I’ve asked you about these specific things, I haven’t received specific answers. While this can be frustrating, and it has been, I really want to know – because I think the answers will reveal what the presuppositions you are operating from are, and can thereby be addressed – perhaps I’ll even discover I shouldn’t have been disagreeing with you after all!

However, when what you are saying seems to be (and there are no few that have come to this conclusion thus far – perhaps we’re all poor readers) that whenever a pastor opens his mouth, under any circumstances, it must be expositional preaching, I’m left with a dilemma. Who in the history of the church has ever done this? Where in Scripture is this commanded? Please, disabuse me of this impression, because that is what I have gathered from your answers thus far – and why I am seeking to gain clarity that I may be lacking.

Before we answer your objections – or your questions – we need to know what ground you’re standing on to make those objections, or ask those questions. I’m sure you know that particular element of presuppositionalism, and I’m sure you see how that applies here. We need to know what *exactly* you’re objecting to, from what standard you are objecting from (how do you define the extent of the command to Timothy you brought up earlier, for example?), and the like.

Understand, however – I am asking these questions for the sake of clarity, and because I am concerned about the unintended consequences of what I believe your position to be from what you have said thus far – and whether it is based in Scripture or not. As with another recent discussion we had, my concern is also whether there is a lack of balance in your position – of adequately addressing the whole counsel of Scripture concerning this subject. Understand, I’m not attacking – I’m asking. I genuinely want to know, as I may not have read you correctly.

Grace and Peace,
~RK

Convicted.

When I was listening to Phil Johnson’s sermon “Marching Orders” earlier, I found myself convicted of something.

I have to confess – the recent controversy swirling around Dr. White and Dr. Caner has caught me up in something I must repent of. It’s something very simple, but not often thought of by those who engage in contention for the faith.

For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus [and] with [it] eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. Remind [them] of these things, and solemnly charge [them] in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless [and leads] to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly [and] empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [men] who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.” Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these [things], he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love [and] peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses [and escape] from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim 2:10-26, NASB)

So, to explain my repentance, I figure this is a good time to explain why I should, as it will perhaps be helpful to others. First, let’s address the overview of the chapter. Paul is encouraging and instructing his son in the faith, Timothy, in the office of elder/overseer. In this chapter, he gives practical instruction concerning what an elder must do. Now, for full disclosure purposes, I am not an elder. However, I am a teacher, and as such, am held to a higher standard.

In verse 10, Paul gives his own philosophy of ministry – also explicated in Philippians 2 – of service and suffering for the sake of the elect. He endures, because he will reign with Christ – to deny Him is to have Christ deny us. Even if we are faithless – He still remains faithful – for He cannot deny Himself! He charges Timothy to remind his flock of these things, and to remind them not to quarrel over trifling matters. This is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. On the contrary – be diligent – be a workman who is not ashamed. Rightly handle the Word of Truth. Avoid worldly, empty chatter – it spreads like gangrene! However, note that Paul is not afraid to name names, as he does elsewhere, of people who stray from the truth. The firm foundation, however, is of God – and stands still. God is who prepares the appropriate vessels for the appropriate work.

Flee from youthful lusts – but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace – with those who call on the Lord with a pure heart. Notice here – peace is always with those of God. If you have peace with the world, you’re doing something wrong. But on we go!

Refuse foolish and ignorant speculations – they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bondservant, however, is NOT quarrelsome – not given to quarreling, for the sake of quarreling. But, and this is where we get to where my problem lies:

He must be: kind to all – am I kind to all? No, I’m not – and I repent of that, and ask forgiveness.

able to teach – I pray that I at least fulfill this duty faithfully.

patient when wronged – the ESV renders this as “patiently enduring evil”. Now, what is interesting about this is that I definitely am a violator of this. I am not only impatient with evil, but I rebel at enduring it – for the sake of God, the elect, or anyone else. It means “patient of ills and wrongs, forbearing” – I have been failing miserably at forbearance in this regard. It doesn’t matter what the wrong is – or whether it is directed at another. This ties in with the next consideration.

…with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses [and escape] from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

I am fond of quoting Bahnsen, and Schaeffer – their “humble boldness” and “truth in love” are dear to my heart. I must confess, however, that I am often ungentle in my correction. I nuke when I should use a scalpel, and I use a club when I should be using a careful razor’s edge to shave away the layers of falsity.

I have kept this name to remind myself to do just that – but I’ve failed in my task, and I ask your forgiveness for this fault. Especially, I ask the forgiveness of Mr. Lumpkins. While I do not minimize the depth of his error in the libel in which he has lately engaged, I’m very sorry for not patiently enduring it, and correcting gently. It doesn’t matter how deep the wound that is made is – or how loyal I strive to be to a friend and a dear brother. I am still called to – and held to – the standard of Scripture in dealing with error – and I haven’t met it. I also ask the forgiveness of anyone else whom I’ve lately been ungentle with – or have talked about impatiently out of their hearing. It is not the standard to which I’ve been called.

It’s something I need to work on, and once again, I repent of it.

Dear Dr. Caner

I appreciate you taking the time to write your statement earlier today, as well as the irenic spirit you assayed in it. I want you to know that I appreciate that you did so, as a Southern Baptist – and that I do appreciate the work you do, despite our disagreement in many matters.

While I am appreciative, I think it may be useful – for you, and for the brethren, to clarify a few matters.

Item 1): The “motive”, to borrow your own phrase, was not to question your conversion. In fact, your conversion, as far as I know, was never referenced or questioned in the vast majority of the *Christian* articles/blogs that negatively referenced your comments on The Pastor’s Perspective, the discrepancies in your testimonials, or your recollections of life as a Muslim. I, for instance, do not question at all that you were raised Muslim, or that you converted to Christianity. What was rendered suspect was whether you were a *devout* Muslim – especially the discrepancy noted with the Shahada.

Item 2): To most of us, the pronunciation issues were a minor head-scratcher, but nothing more. In fact, one of the team bloggers at AOMin.org – TurretinFan – publicly defended you on those allegations on the most public Christian post leveled at that topic. As you may know, Muslims, Roman Catholics, atheists, and others often tout their conversions from “Protestantism,” and often inflate their level of devotion and knowledge – we call it “conversion story syndrome”. Yusuf Estes, Tim Staples, and Dan Barker are good examples of this tendency. While this may not be the case for you – there were many of the hallmarks of similar cases implied by the discrepancies noted – and it caused concern.

Item 3): You state: “Being called a “liar,” however, is a serious charge, especially when it is made by Christians. That would indicate that (1) the accusers can know the motives of the accused person’s heart, and (2) the accused person intentionally misled people.”

With all due respect, by those standards, no man can ever be called a liar, save by God. Also with due respect, by any objective standard, I would hold forth the following statements: “Calvinists are worse than Muslims” and “Formal debates have been taken over a lot by myopic Reformed guys, uh, they try to turn it into these little, uh, show ponies, it’s like the Jerry Springer Show, basically, and there’s really not any real discussion going on, there’s rolling of eyes, its huffing and passive/aggressive garbage.” Dr. Caner, both of these statements may be your opinion – but they are hardly the truth. Since they are not the truth, what else may we call them? Couple that with your statements on hyper-calvinism, and we can take nothing out of that series of comments but that we are being systematically misrepresented.

I do not offer these criticisms lightly, nor do I offer them glibly. I’m honestly commenting with the intent that it may be evident that I offer them to further your understanding of why you are being criticized by those who hold to Reformed doctrines and a Reformed apologetic method. Above all, we seek to be consistent – theologically, and apologetically. If we do not question the facts presented by those on our side as we do those opposing us, we cannot help but be inconsistent, and rightly criticized by our opponents on that basis. While I understand that you appear to fully belief what you state about Calvinists – understand that what you criticize as “hyper-calvinism” is simple, historic Reformed belief. What is recently called “moderate” Calvinism by folks like Dr. Geisler is nothing like the historic Calvinism of ANY of the Reformed branches.

I am “Reformed” – one of the group you criticized – and I’ve had one moderated debate – whether it was “formal” is debatable, as it was online. Nonetheless, Dr. White, and other Reformed debaters are being classified as engaging in nothing but “passive-aggressive garbage”, “no real discussion”, and “the Jerry Springer Show”. I’m sorry, but I’ve watched a great many debates – and debates like Dr. White’s with Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, or Shabir Ally were anything but “no real discussion”, or “huffing”! I don’t think I was engaging in “eye rolling” or “no real discussion” when I engaged a young atheist man on the topic of “The Triune God of Scripture is the grounds for all knowledge” – as is clearly stated in Col 2:3!

Enough criticism, however. So that you can know that there are areas of agreement – I completely agree with your position concerning the CAMEL method. For nearly identical reasons. I support you 100% in your statement of opposition to it, and thank you for your public statement concerning it’s dangers. I appreciate many things about your ministry, and service, despite our theological differences.

In closing – let me again thank you for your statement, and the attempt to mend a breach. It IS appreciated, despite the criticisms offered above, and I don’t want to detract from that. My earnest desire is that this is taken constructively, and that there might be an honest attempt to mend fences with your Reformed brethren in the SBC and without. You aren’t going to change our mind about the glorious doctrines of God’s sovereign grace – but please be aware – we aren’t questioning your salvation, or your conversion by questioning your consistency. We’re as likely to question one of our own on those grounds as we are anyone else. We do not do so to cast aspersions on their character – but to safeguard the reputation of the God we serve and love – as, I believe, do you, however mistaken we believe you to be concerning what you defend at times.

For your edification, I’d encourage you to look at the following: “Open Letter to Ergun Caner.”

A Snapshot of SBC Graciousness

The personal attacks range from the truth of their lives before Christ to the academic degrees they hold.

Really? In the original context it’s not clear who he’s referring to. Later on he includes Dr. White.

They drink the kool-aide pouring from the poisoned vine

Yeah, that’s gracious.

You may think that no person who calls themselves a Follower of Christ would side with a Muslim to degrade and berate a Brother in Christ. I did also until I viewed the following video.

Irony? It’s calling.

Please note that any believer that calls into question the truth of the Drs. Caner background and degrees use the research of Muslims (those who have a reason for perverting the truth) for their documentation.

Any believer. Yeah, no problems there.

Then you have those that are jealous and envious of the Drs. Caner. Those envious and jealous will use the lies for a “gotcha” moment in order to accomplish the same ends–silence the truth.

Yeah, that jealousy. Of what?

Keep taking a Muslim’s perspective that Dr. Caner is lying and push this thing as hard as you can. Or, accept that Dr. Caner has written over 20 books on Islam and had them published by reputable publishers who would have certainly done the background checks needed to verify everything that James White says is false. Or, you can accept two reputable Christian Universities that are both accredited by SACS that Dr. Caner has his degrees in order and that James White is pushing falsehood by calling all this into question.

No blatant ad hominem there. Yeah, because Dr. White said all sorts of things about his degrees. Not.

James White doesn’t even hold an accredited PhD. How, can he be a Prof at GCBTS?

Call Golden Gate. Or Grand Canyon.

I then went back to his website to view his credentials and do you know my surprise to find that his PhD is from an non-credited seminary. I went to the seminary website and found this explanation for their lack of accreditation. I am not questioning Columbia Evangelical Seminary’s,I am merely asking how one can be a prof at an accredited seminary when his PhD does not hold an accreditation.

Call Golden Gate. Or Grand Canyon.

It is overtly evident everyone is responding in this thread for one reason. They are upset that James White and Dr. Caner did not debate. Now James White has gotten what he wanted–a public call out to the Brothers Caner to debate him and he will shut up about these Muslim claims.

Yeah, that was what he was after. Okay, not really. But keep repeating it.

I appeal to you, under the title of your blog, and as a follower of Christ. Remove this post as you have placed the lives of people in jeopardy.

Please remove it.

Yeah, that makes sense. A blog post is going to put people’s lives in jeopardy.

The problem with this posting has nothing to do with someone not being truthful, neither does it have to do with disagreements of people and their various positions. The problem with this post has to do with using something that has nothing to do with sound research. This post is based on research that James White has produced and he got his research from right-wing Muslims that believe if they can do away with a Muslim that converted to Christianity they will go to heaven when they die. She has given James White a wider audience then he ever would have had.

He did? She did? I think someone needs to fact check.

Seeing you have no problem placing the lives of people in jeopardy, I now see the reason you were censored by the IMB.

~Tim Rogers

Yeah, that wasn’t a cheap shot.

Hyper-Calvinist James White has whined the very same line for the last 4 years: Ergun Caner is a coward because Ergun Caner won’t debate me. For him, apparently little matters in doctrinal engagement outside public, formal debate, debate concerning which the reader is tortuously reminded about every 28 words–give or take a breathe or two–just how good he (White) is at it.

It’s drudgery to listen to such unmitigated gloating. Sorry.

Gracious as always, Peter.

Though you did not ask me, if I may, one clear reason I think Tim brings this up is White’s relentless, non-stop infatuation with the Caners (esp. Ergun).

For White, it is not enough to disagree with Dr. Caner. Instead, he must attempt to torture his name with perpetual castigation of “lying”, “dishonesty,” “cowardly,” “fraudulent,” etc.

So, in turn, we make the same allegations, except with an extra helping of snark. Sure.

Dr. David Allen demonstrates sufficiently White’s theological leanings toward hyper-Calvinism.

Uh. Here, here, here. From AOMin here.

Particularly, two influential blogging Calvinists appear to have made it a life-mission to smear Ergun Caner’s life and ministry in the mud-hole of deception: Tom Ascol, Southern Baptist pastor and Executive Director of Founders Ministries, and James White, Primitive Baptist preacher and Reformed Baptist apologist from Phoenix, Az.

Life mission? Primitive Baptist? Ridiculous.

At least that’s the sense I get when I read White boast of his many rhetorical victories and the cowards who will not face him in open exchange (more on White later).

Yeah.

This may be one of the lowest, most outrageous incidents yet illustrating the viciousness of some strict Calvinists toward non-Calvinist brothers.

You know – viciousness. By what standard?

For example, let’s say someone wanted to question the authenticity of James White’s so-called “academic” doctoral” degree (And, understand:  it perhaps needs to be questioned if White is going to insist on gloating about all his academic accomplishments). So, if one wanted to question his doctoral degree’s worth, perhaps we could link to this , this , this, and this.

See the top tab – “Common Objections.”

James White may be the whiniest kid on the block

Not as whiny as Peter Lumpkins – that’s for sure.

Interesting Elder White should bring that up. Surf over to White’s church’s eldership and one finds just what “under the authority of the eldership” means to James White. The eldership appears to be a board of two: James White and the pastor.

Note: PRBC used to have three elders, including Dr. White. Donald Cross passed away several years previously.

Since James White insists on calling Ergun Caner coward for not debating him, what does that make White when he refuses to debate somebody? Apparently, after agreeing to debate a Muslim critic, James White backed out. We know this is so because the Muslim says so himself on his website!

You see, according to White’s “code of behavior,” there’s no reason to suspect Muslim attack sites’ objectivity, and therefore “evidence” cannot be disregarded on that basis. At least, that was his reasoning when he “exposed” Dr. Caner as a “fake Muslim” using a source which carries demonstrable hate for Dr. Caner.

Yes, that was the source, and that was the topic. Not.

Heck, you may even be kicked out of the JWFC (i.e. James White Fan Club for the uninitiated).

No, I’m not only the president – I’m also a client.

“No thanks, “Dr” White. You and your community are much too cantankerous for me”

Yes, and you’re the model of humility and grace. Gag me with a Buick, please.

And, perhaps even more indefensible is stooping to defend their godless tearing down of another brother being logged by some here. Where is shame?

Well, the last I saw, it was being trampled over there in your corner of the SBC. I may be mistaken, though. The correct term may be “violently pummeled”. In a hypothetical situation, of course.

Dr. Ergun Caner has been unrighteously butchered by two men in the post.

Yeah, if he was being righteously butchered, they’d get the choicest portion.

Was or was not Ascol & White loving their neighbor as themselves when they cited a Muslim hate-site?

Was or was not Peter Lumpkins loving his neighbor as himself when he went off on an invective-filled screed?

I think it’s very telling that absolutely no one wants to tackle whether or not the sources are valid pertaining to “Dr” White’s “academic” degree.

Probably because it’s not only asinine, but infantile. Hypothetically.

White’s choir boys have already sung that tune to death, were one to ask me

~Peter Lumpkins

They tell me I have a fine voice, but I wasn’t notified that I made the choir! Sweet!

Or if one is obsessed with issues they can’t get beyond for some reason–Maybe because of a problematic pathological nature– Maybe they wanted or “needed” something to give their lives meaning–And maybe they are just angry because another person denied them that which gives them their source of self-worth–Maybe it could be just anything for such a person–Maybe something simple or actually meaningless–Maybe like a debate that did not occur back as far as 2006–Who Knows?–Maybe.

Maybe, just maybe we should wonder why someone can’t let something from 2006 go–Unless, maybe, of course he who cannot let something go from 2006 is either antagonistic or obsessed–or maybe even both. Yeah–maybe so.

Yeah, Dr. White just doesn’t have enough time for ministry, with all this Caner stalking. I mean, he hasn’t done any debates, books, or anything! Hint: do a search on the blog, and see how many times Dr. Caner has been mentioned on aomin since the debate debacle wound down. It might be illuminating.

And then there is the fellow who has made a name and gathered a following for himself by chasing Caner around since 2006 because he did not debate him.

Yes, because Caner made him famous AND wealthy! That’s why he has the presidency of a seminary, and drives an Expedition. Oh, wait…

I think this post is one that could bring more hardship on those guys families. I would not go so far as to say this post depicts depraved indifference, but I would say there it depicts a great degree of thoughtless. Yeah, that’s it, not heartlessness, but most certainly thoughtlessness.

Uh, yeah. Red Herring, anyone? I hear it’s delightful.

Some people talk about the primacy of the gospel and some people share the gospel with a lost and dying world. I will cast my lot with those who do.

Because, you know, Dr. White never talks about the Gospel. Ever. Do a quick blog search – you know – actually *try* to look into what you accuse of, sight-unseen.

Ergun Caner may never be able to give a meaningful, effective gospel witness to this young man due to the strong differences between them at this time. But, I assure you, if this young man were on his death bed looking into the flames of hell, he would not ask Debbie to share the gospel with him, not after this. That opportunity is gone and it is now probably gone for any of us.

So let me ask all those warriors who have launched their Christian version of jihad in defense of their Evangelical Superstar: do you have any idea how many obstacles you have placed in the way of this young Muslim ever hearing the gospel in honesty? Did that thought ever once cross your mind before you in your abject ignorance blithely accused him of falsehood? Where is all your vaunted concern for evangelism now, I wonder? ~James White

This situation has gotten to the place that Debbie had such tunnel vision as to call in a twenty-two year old Muslim young man to make her case before the world about something that is really old news and was fueled by one Christian’s beef with another about the canceling of a silly debate that really amounts to less than a hill of beans anyway.

Next, I would like to refute the oft-repeated falsehood floating about amongst the “touch not the Lord’s anointed” crowd today: I had hardly given Ergun Caner a thought over the past few years. I have no interest in this fight right now. I have work to do, chapters and books to write, debates to prepare for. Outside of noting an odd statement by Caner on Twitter last summer sometime, I have had little interest in his activities. Rogers and Lumpkins have both falsely attributed to me intentions and desires I do not have. They seem to think I absolutely MUST debate Ergun Caner. I would surely like to do so—but only for the benefit of those who have been misled by Caner in the area of the freedom of God in salvation. But I already know of so many who have seen through his bluster on the topic and come to embrace God’s kingly freedom in the gospel that if such an encounter never happened, I would continue to rejoice in the Lord’s kind providence. Ironically, right as this current situation began to evolve, I was contacted by folks in Lynchburg asking me to come there in the fall sometime to speak on the atonement and, as a part of the trip, invite Ergun Caner to debate. I would still love to see that happen, as would many, many others (the cancellation of that debate, which was documented to be the result of the dishonest behavior of the Caner brothers, disappointed many), but even here, I have been contacted by others and asked to participate. I was not the one even looking for such an opportunity. ~James White

Let me ask you a question. Do you not think it somewhat obsessive for a pastor to chase after a guy since 2006 about a debate that did not happen? There comes a point wherein, if you are going to remain emotionally healthy, you have to get over any specific disappointment and go on with your life.

Disappointment is part of life and so is getting over it. To become fixated on such for this period of time is not healthy.

What, then, has brought about this current interest? Simple: Ergun Caner claims to do what I do in reality. He claims to be a leading figure in Islamic apologetics. He claims to have debated “leaders” in a wide spectrum of religious beliefs in more than a dozen countries and more than half of the United States. But the fact is, I haven’t been able to find a single Muslim apologist or leader who has ever debated the man. He has redefined the term “debate” so that he can include every conversation he has ever had with anyone who is not a Christian. Why redefine the language? Because he needs to bring students to his school, evidently, and so his self-promotional language has caught him in a number of falsehoods. But my involvement here, as repulsive as I find it to be (I detest politics and would much rather be working on my next article on the Qur’an’s view of “three” and the Trinity) is forced upon me by the fact that simple integrity demands it. Unlike Ergun Caner, I actually have interaction with Shabir Ally and the wide range of Islamic apologists active in the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, and elsewhere. I have to look them in the eye when I shake hands with them after a debate. And I therefore have to answer to a higher standard of truth than the “Circle the Wagons” mentality of Pastor Tim Rogers and Peter Lumpkins. I have to be consistent. I have sharply, and rightly, criticized “former Christians” who have become Muslims for their obvious ignorance of the Christian faith (Yusuf Estes, for example). So if a self-proclaimed former Muslim makes false claims about his activities (claiming to debate people he has never met, for example), am I to keep my mouth shut out of “team loyalty”? How can I do this? It is hypocrisy, plain and simple. ~James White
~CB Scott

a third source that actually has a strange derangement with trying to trap a brother in Christ into a debate. The loss of such an event is obviously wearing thin on this brother and the applied pressure grows weekly. Of the most sad and unthinkable in this process is the fact that a brother in Christ would use Muslim attack sites to go after another brother. No excuse on this earth or in heaven can justify this – NEVER.

This is beyond reasonable thought. A guy who claims to be a Christian goes and uses material produced by Muslims to attack another Christian?????? For Mr. White to do that is beyond comprehension. Not to mention the fact that the Muslims have sent (and this verified)death threats to his entire family detailing the acts they will commit.

Why not ask Mr. White how many Muslims he has led to Lord? Why not ask him why as a Christian he would use material of Muslims to attack his brother in Christ? All of this over a debate and a desire to get a debate?

This is horrible and proves the point that blogging has become the real Jerry Springer show in America.

I am shocked that no one is questioning a Christian using Muslim media and propaganda against another Christian???

And all to have a silly debate.

have you thought about his family? They are threatened routinely by the garbage you are getting off of White’s web site.

Christiams should act better than this. Stop feeding the true evil people this fuel to their fire. Have more class than Mr White has!

Checking out Mr White is reading propaganda. Please hear what CB is saying. This no SBC stuff. This is real life and death stuff and one man who cares more his PR than he does a fellow Chriatian and his family.

You are giving credibility to a Muslim… Will you question anything because some nut puts something up on the internet? I would hope you would not because I think you are smarter than that.

I have been in brief correspondence with the young Muslim here in London who posted the clips from Ergun Caner. He contacted me when he saw me asking, back in October/November, for help in finding any of these dozens of debates (61 with Muslims alone according to one 2006 newspaper interview). Up to that time I had not even considered the possibility that there was a wider problem with Ergun Caner’s claims. This young Muslim has been the object of unmitigated hatred by many self-proclaimed “Christians” of late, and for what? He didn’t make up Ergun Caner’s self-contradictory claims. He did not force Ergun to tell one group of people he was born in Istanbul, a “sand monkey” (a grossly offensive term unworthy of anyone standing in a pulpit) and another group he was born in Sweden. He did not force Ergun to confuse Shabir Ally with Ahmed Deedat nor did he make Ergun confuse the shahada with the opening words of Surah Al Fatiha. Nor did he make Ergun claim the Muslims believe in a prophet they’ve never heard of, and then have the tapes edited to remove the mistake. To blame this young man for Ergun Caner’s errors is absolutely, positively reprehensible for anyone who names the name of Jesus Christ, who identified Himself as the very embodiment of truth itself. ~James White

Also, I note that Peter Lumpkins deleted the Muslim’s respectful comment off his comment section.

While you are researching I have a thought – check out the validity of Mr. Whites PhD. You will not believe the campus of the school he graduated from.

Why don’t you check out Mr. White? There are major issues there! That is extremely relevant!

White has gone after Ergun with a passion I wish people would possess in leading people to Jesus. The debate issue is really absurd. Do you know how many different ways “debate” is used?

See the above tab – “Common Objections”.

Ask Mr. White how many he has led to the Lord from his debates?

~Tim Guthrie
A “for instance” post about the reason for debate.

Saddest about this episode you “expose” here is not White — I have long expected this uncharitable, unChristian nonsense from he and his kind… I suppose the bottom line remains that, if a “theological movement” or a “historical/religious system” has to resort to such unreliable sources, dishonest means and unbiblical tactics to achieve their goals and “win” their debates, just how “Christian” can they be?

~J. Dale Weaver

Notice the subjectivism and ad hominem.

With both you and Tim, it appears that the hyper-calvinists among us practice the fine art of shooting the messengers. How dare you offer critical analysis of such boorish behavior of their Sainted Dortian Warriors.

This is nothing more than an attempt to make the argument about the person rather than substance. This also seems to me that “Dr.” White is equally, if not more guilty of the same tactics.

~Ron Phillips Sr.

No irony here at all.

Look, folks. Look at the issues *actually brought up* by Dr. White. Read his post, here.

This sort of behavior and jumping to conclusions is absolutely amazing. Reprehensible, really. Boorish, to be kind.

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